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Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 4:01:55 PM
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speak_n_it
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Do you believe in falling out in the spirit?
Have you ever seen someone get hurt when this happens? On Sunday night, an older lady at our church was standing around the altar when a guy "fell out in the spirit". He fell into her, knocking her down. She hit her head very hard, broke a finger, and broke her pelvis in 3 places. She will now be going to a nursing home for rehabilitation.
Just wanted to know some of your ideas about this.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 4:12:23 PM
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earthless
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I know people who have been killed and or severely injured because of being "slain in the Spirit."
We have had several threads on this topic in the 'Church' sub-forum, you may find it to be very helpful. I am sorry you go to a church that allows this and seems to encourage this.
When it comes to the topic of "Slain in the Spirit", there is only one side to this issue. Nowhere do you find the phenomenon of slain in the spirit in the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The phenomenon itself is explained by natural processes, it's found in the world of the occult. If you look at Scripture - Scripture teaches you to be alert and sober minded because the adversary, Satan, prowls around like a lion seeking whom he might devour.
Christians are not supposed to be in an altered state of consciousness, you're supposed to be alert and sober minded. So 'slain in the spirit' is a phenomenon that you will find in the world of the occult. But not in a Christian worldview.
You can go to any stage hypnotist in Vegas, any day of the week, and have the exact same thing happen to you (slain in the spirit). In fact, this is explained in social-psychological manipulation. Benny Hinn for example, he's maybe a C+/B- grade hypnotist. He's not a great hypnotist, but he is good enough for the audience that he is working with.
What is applied is auto-suggestion, he's working people into an altered-state of consciousness, he uses peer pressure, he is using people's expectations and he is using the subtle power of suggestion which can make black appear white. He is using repetitive music and words. It can obscure reality and enshrine absurdity.
When you are hyper-suggestible, you can be made to believe anything that enters your mind. No matter how mundane or outlandish. It is really not something that ought to be applied within the context of a Christian worldview.
A lot of people who have never thought critically about this phenomenon in light of Scripture. I have taken the passages that people have used to support this, as a pretext for slain in the spirit. None of the passages make the point.
There is the passage where the Pharisee's are after Jesus and they then fall backwards - that is a classic case in point. What you find in Scripture is the enemies of Christ falling backwards. You don't find the friends of Christ falling backwards. The friends of Christ fall forward in adoration, they don't fall backwards as the phenomenon as slain in the spirit would have you believe you do.
And the reason you fall backwards, is because that is an easure function to manipulate, particularly if you have catchers. As opposed to falling forward. There is an absolute absence of catchers in Scripture as well. Why would you need catchers at all?! If this was a sovereign work of God.
Looking at the listing of gifts in Corinthians, being slain in the spirit is not even listed. You don't find it anywhere in Scripture.
The only place I might point you to is Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5), they were slain in the Spirit (killed), but I don't think people will be lining up for that anytime soon.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 4:16:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5799
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I know people who have been killed and or severely injured because of being "slain in the Spirit."
Got a link earthless?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 5:03:51 PM
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NESS55
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quote:
ORIGINAL: speak_n_it
Do you believe in falling out in the spirit?
define what you mean by falling out in the spirit
b/c from what your telling me it sounds like a charismatic term am i right?
NESS<><
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 5:23:51 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I know people who have been killed and or severely injured because of being "slain in the Spirit."
Got a link earthless?
Thanks
RC
Of the Benny Hinn one?
quote:
The number of victims 'slain in the Spirit' continues to rise proportionately with the number of churches who adopt Word-Faith/Toronto type phenomena. Sometimes serious injuries can occur.
In 1985 at his Oklahoma City crusade someone 'slain in the Spirit' by Word-Faith teacher Benny Hinn fell on top of 85 year-old Mrs. Ella Peppard, fracturing her hip. She later died of complications. Mrs. Peppard's family brought a legal action against Mr. Hinn which he settled out of court, reportedly for a seven-figure sum of money.
Many injuries often go unrecorded in an environment where 'the Holy Spirit' can do what he likes.
One woman received a sprained ankle, broken glasses and a black eye while attending a Toronto-style meeting at which the Rt. Rev. David Pytches of Chorley Wood prayed for her. Again someone 'slain' fell on top of her. A most worrying aspect was that later in testifying on video she appeared quite happy about what had happened and accepted these injuries as from the Lord.
HERE
< Message edited by earthless -- 12/3/2008 9:23:53 PM >
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 8:37:04 PM
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speak_n_it
Posts: 13
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quote:
define what you mean by falling out in the spirit
b/c from what your telling me it sounds like a charismatic term am i right?
Yes, this is what I am asking.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 9:25:08 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello ak_n_it
Let me say, first of all, that the Holy Spirit will never injure anyone when some one is slain in the Spirit. Alert churches, do however, have men to catch those that fall and make sure they don't knock others over.
While I've been slain in the Spirit and feel it's a valid experience, I think it's overblown in many cases. I would rather sit under anointed teachers that help be to become more like Jesus.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 9:46:39 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Hello ak_n_it
Let me say, first of all, that the Holy Spirit will never injure anyone when some one is slain in the Spirit. Alert churches, do however, have men to catch those that fall and make sure they don't knock others over.
If "Slain in the Spirit" is a genuine movement of the Holy Spirit.. why is there any need for catchers? Let alone any concern that the individual being "slain" could possibly fall on someone else, hurt themselves, etc..
Where are there catchers in Scripture? Where is this "slain" business in Scripture besides as a form of punishment and killing by the Holy Spirit to those who are enemies of Christ?
quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
While I've been slain in the Spirit and feel it's a valid experience,
What do you base your feelings on? Our emotions are fickle and ebb and flow. All things are to be tested in light of Scripture, not against what we "feel" and or experience.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
I think it's overblown in many cases. I would rather sit under anointed teachers that help be to become more like Jesus.
What exactly constitutes an anointed teacher? There are no degrees/levels of anointment - every born-again believer is anointed in the same manner and by the same Person.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/3/2008 11:31:38 PM
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mikekelley
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I have taken some time to review most of the posts on this site regarding this subject. This is the bottom line. To dig into the truth about this subject you really need to dive in to God's word and find the truth regarding this issue. This is what I recommend, get knowledge! Get as much information from the word of God as possible. First, visit http://www.radicalchristiantv.com/ you will be able to read and study a powerful example of the "power of God" right on the home page. Next, I also recommend visiting http://www.howardbrowne.com/ a beautiful post teaches all believers NOT RELY ON YOUR POWER but to trust God's spirit.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 12:29:09 AM
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Casper22
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My Brother is a Church of God member and he talks about this happening to him. I really dont know what to think on this issue I dont want to and am afraid to condemn it (we do have a tendency to condemn what we dont understand as human beings) Im afraid to condemn it because what if it is a valid thing. Like speacking in tongues ive never had any of those experiences but my question is this can it be possible that a person can get so excited and so I guess happy is the term and be so in love with the Lord isnt it possible that they can just pass out? But the way my brother explained his experience was odd to me though and im not saying his experience wasn't genuine so no one that believes in this dont get mad at me. He said the Pastor came behind him laid his hands on his shoulders and started praying over him and before he finished praying he said he went down and he was laying on the floor as if he where parylised and he was aware but couldn't move but he sayed that a feeling of such peace and love enveloped him as if he were laying in the presence of God and he really believes he experienced this through the power of God. I questioned him thoroughly about what his Pastor was saying what he was doing ive heard about all of the powers of suggestion that are used as explanations for this experience all the Psychsomatic stuff but he said the Pastor was just praying for him and his wife. So now im confused I did see alot of this as a child when my mom would take us to her Pentecostal Church but back then it was just accepted as a thing of God but now with books out like Christianity in crisis and the Counterfit Revival I dont know anymore and it does kind of concern me. It does seem like more and more people want to go to Church just for some sort of experience like my Aunt who refuses to go to any Church that refuses to believe in shouting when to me the Word of God should be more important everything else is just gravy. I dont know maybe im wrong
Casper
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 8:07:29 AM
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markvh
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2008
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Earthless,
You seem to be drawing a hard line about this, and yet using only your own personal logic as a source. In Acts, onlookers were convinced that the disciples were drunk. You have not addressed this in your discussion. It is unreasonable for you to jump to such broad rationalizations about refuting the possibility of the effects of the Spirit in this manner. Could it be that it is "easier" for you to be dogmatic about it, and "classify" people in your mind, rather than delve into it with a Scriptural approach?
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 8:14:46 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikekelley
I have taken some time to review most of the posts on this site regarding this subject. This is the bottom line. To dig into the truth about this subject you really need to dive in to God's word and find the truth regarding this issue. This is what I recommend, get knowledge! Get as much information from the word of God as possible. First, visit http://www.radicalchristiantv.com/ you will be able to read and study a powerful example of the "power of God" right on the home page. Next, I also recommend visiting http://www.howardbrowne.com/ a beautiful post teaches all believers NOT RELY ON YOUR POWER but to trust God's spirit.
Dear friend - Rodney Howard Browne (the "holy ghost" bartender) is a false teacher and a false prophet. A leader of the Counterfeit Revival movement.
We have two threads in the 'Church' sub-forum that would be of great aid to you. One of them is the one-stop thread on the 'Word of Faith' movement. And the other is the one-stop thread on Rodney Howard Browne.
Instead of just posting links, could you perhaps respond to the fact that this practice seen in the occultic world for centuries, has no basis in Scripture?
Thank you.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 8:17:52 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: markvh
Earthless,
You seem to be drawing a hard line about this, and yet using only your own personal logic as a source. In Acts, onlookers were convinced that the disciples were drunk. You have not addressed this in your discussion. It is unreasonable for you to jump to such broad rationalizations about refuting the possibility of the effects of the Spirit in this manner. Could it be that it is "easier" for you to be dogmatic about it, and "classify" people in your mind, rather than delve into it with a Scriptural approach?
Friend, several of us have delved deep into this topic in the other long-running thread we have on this very topic. This is not the first time this has been brought up nor discussed on these boards.
Your example of Acts was also heavily touched upon in that thread, it is located HERE
It is currently over 23 pages of discussion. I am surprised the moderators have not closed this thread yet and directed everyone to that one.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 8:42:17 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5799
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Of the Benny Hinn one?
HERE
Ok, I thought that you had personal knowledge of such.
BTW earthless, that is a very Scurrilous site absolutely full of gossip, inurendos, etc.
I always read your post with great interest and respect them for thier substance, but this site is shakey to say the least.
I am not saying that in the millions of "Salin in the Spirit" occurances (either real or imagined) that injuries have not occured; just don't have a lot of respect for that site.
And I agree; why the catchers, if it is of God; be happy; don't worry.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 8:44:09 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Of the Benny Hinn one?
HERE
Ok, I thought that you had personal knowledge of such.
BTW earthless, that is a very Scurrilous site absolutely full of gossip, inurendos, etc.
I always read your post with great interest and respect them for thier substance, but this site is shakey to say the least.
I am not saying that in the millions of "Salin in the Spirit" occurances (either real or imagined) that injuries have not occured; just don't have a lot of respect for that site.
And I agree; why the catchers, if it is of God; be happy; don't worry.
Thanks
RC
RC - it was the first link that came up on Google. I didn't have enough time, at that time, to find the actual news story.
When that poor lady's family sued.. Benny settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 8:48:08 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And I agree; why the catchers, if it is of God; be happy; don't worry.
Thanks
RC
Exactly, not only is the practice known as "slain in the Spirit" absent from Scripture. Absent from the ministry of Jesus, of the Apostles, of the disciples, of the first century church. The need for catchers, women fixing their dresses once they are down so as to not reveal their privates, etc.. is absent from Scripture and not something anyone would need to be concerned about if it was a genuine move of the Holy Spirit.
God does things right and in control.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 9:24:59 AM
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Petsmarty
Posts: 155
Joined: 12/3/2008
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I may not should say this, but I have to. When you give satan credit for something that the Holy Ghost does, that is blaspheme. Do you know what that is? That is the only unforgiveable sin. Until you have experienced such then you really don't have a clue what you are speaking so strongly against. Just be careful--you are treading on dangerous spiritual ground. The catchers are there to prevent any injuries to you, or to any one sitting close by.. You can be slain in the spirit and fall, and not be injured, I KNOW, it's happened to me, but I am more confident knowing someone is there to catch me. Oh and sometimes, they fall forward. WE get drunk on that NEW WINE,. It is my sincere wish that you and all nay sayers could feel the Spirit that strongly. IT IS UNDENIABLY sweet.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 10:16:01 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
When you give satan credit for something that the Holy Ghost does, that is blaspheme.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread attributing anything to Satan. Could you show me where this was done?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 1:17:08 PM
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Petsmarty
Posts: 155
Joined: 12/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I know people who have been killed and or severely injured because of being "slain in the Spirit."
We have had several threads on this topic in the 'Church' sub-forum, you may find it to be very helpful. I am sorry you go to a church that allows this and seems to encourage this.
When it comes to the topic of "Slain in the Spirit", there is only one side to this issue. Nowhere do you find the phenomenon of slain in the spirit in the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The phenomenon itself is explained by natural processes, it's found in the world of the occult. If you look at Scripture - Scripture teaches you to be alert and sober minded because the adversary, Satan, prowls around like a lion seeking whom he might devour.
Christians are not supposed to be in an altered state of consciousness, you're supposed to be alert and sober minded. So 'slain in the spirit' is a phenomenon that you will find in the world of the occult. But not in a Christian worldview.
You can go to any stage hypnotist in Vegas, any day of the week, and have the exact same thing happen to you (slain in the spirit). In fact, this is explained in social-psychological manipulation. Benny Hinn for example, he's maybe a C+/B- grade hypnotist. He's not a great hypnotist, but he is good enough for the audience that he is working with.
What is applied is auto-suggestion, he's working people into an altered-state of consciousness, he uses peer pressure, he is using people's expectations and he is using the subtle power of suggestion which can make black appear white. He is using repetitive music and words. It can obscure reality and enshrine absurdity.
When you are hyper-suggestible, you can be made to believe anything that enters your mind. No matter how mundane or outlandish. It is really not something that ought to be applied within the context of a Christian worldview.A lot of people who have never thought critically about this phenomenon in light of Scripture. I have taken the passages that people have used to support this, as a pretext for slain in the spirit. None of the passages make the point.
There is the passage where the Pharisee's are after Jesus and they then fall backwards - that is a classic case in point. What you find in Scripture is the enemies of Christ falling backwards. You don't find the friends of Christ falling backwards. The friends of Christ fall forward in adoration, they don't fall backwards as the phenomenon as slain in the spirit would have you believe you do.
And the reason you fall backwards, is because that is an easure function to manipulate, particularly if you have catchers. As opposed to falling forward. There is an absolute absence of catchers in Scripture as well. Why would you need catchers at all?! If this was a sovereign work of God.
Looking at the listing of gifts in Corinthians, being slain in the spirit is not even listed. You don't find it anywhere in Scripture.
The only place I might point you to is Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5), they were slain in the Spirit (killed), but I don't think people will be lining up for that anytime soon.
[
This is what I read to mean about satan... (that which is bolded) IF it wasn't meant that way, then I apologize, but it certainly sounded that way to me... If you don't believe that way, that's fine--just don't go saying those that do are into the occult because we aren't... We just believe differently. This is NOT a requirement to get into Heaven, but it sure is a wonderful experience here on this earth.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 1:26:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Petsmarty,
I believe what Scripture says - can you please show us why you adhere to something as a genuine move of the Holy Spirit yet it is absent from the Bible?
Is not the danger in attributing something as from God that is either human in origin at best.. at worst demonic?
The sword cuts both ways.
Also, your comments about blaspheming the Holy Spirit are out of context to what that actually is (which is two-fold and one of those folds is not something we can do anymore).
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 1:36:03 PM
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markvh
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Instead of just posting links, could you perhaps respond to the fact that this practice seen in the occultic world for centuries, has no basis in Scripture?
Thank you.
Earthless,
You still have not answered my assertion regarding Scriptural reference that does describe such behavior. (see above) Acts,...-Jesus disciples.
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 1:50:05 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: markvh
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Instead of just posting links, could you perhaps respond to the fact that this practice seen in the occultic world for centuries, has no basis in Scripture?
Thank you.
Earthless,
You still have not answered my assertion regarding Scriptural reference that does describe such behavior. (see above) Acts,...-Jesus disciples.
Can you please post the passage(s)?
I posted a video clip detailing what I am describing, did you watch it?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 1:50:27 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
This is NOT a requirement to get into Heaven, but it sure is a wonderful experience here on this earth.
While I certainly wouldn't break fellowship over the issue, I do have to ask where this is seen in Scripture. I've yet to see a convincing argument for followers of Christ falling down under the compelling of the Spirit.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Falling Out In The Spirit - 12/4/2008 2:12:59 PM
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markvh
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: markvh
Earthless,
You seem to be drawing a hard line about this, and yet using only your own personal logic as a source. In Acts, onlookers were convinced that the disciples were drunk. You have not addressed this in your discussion. It is unreasonable for you to jump to such broad rationalizations about refuting the possibility of the effects of the Spirit in this manner. Could it be that it is "easier" for you to be dogmatic about it, and "classify" people in your mind, rather than delve into it with a Scriptural approach?
Friend, several of us have delved deep into this topic in the other long-running thread we have on this very topic. This is not the first time this has been brought up nor discussed on these boards.
Your example of Acts was also heavily touched upon in that thread, it is located HERE
It is currently over 23 pages of discussion. I am surprised the moderators have not closed this thread yet and directed everyone to that one.
I looked at the other post, and am surprised you were inclined to reference it. Yes, it is a long discussion, but I fail to see any evidence of something being dis-proved. I was trying to keep my questions/points very short and simple in order to avoid any inflammatory talk. I also disagree that you "delved deep" into the topic, it was more of a massive disagreement. As one deftly expressed, no one planned on being convinced to change their opinion about anything, and the majority of that thread dealt with people being argumentative about their opinion. There is no reason to refer to people as false teachers, or "WOF" or any type of labeling. That is criticism in its lowest form. Using Scripture as our filter EACH of us can effectively determine through spiritual revelation and prayer and Bible study the reality of ANY experience, and it is not your place to categorize everyone you do not understand, like, or agree with, and try to impose your opinion on others. My intention with the original questioning is to get us all to focus on what is in the Bible that does allow people to experience things that are difficult to explain. For THAT, there are plenty of references, and one cannot conclude that an event that is difficult to explain is occultic.
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