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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 7:57:19 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
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quote:
I'm sure this has truth, but Sunday worship has not worried us for a 1000 years, why is it an issue now?
I know for me, it's about being in the will of YAH and obeying His word (Torah). Just because it's been around for a 1000 years does not make a practice or doctrine correct.
This seems to be more end-times...I don't see Christians fitting the bill as anti-messiah...Islam fits the bill, imo. Plus when I read the prophets, the places that are named that pertain to the "day of the LORD..." deal with Islamic countries in the Middle East/ Asia Minor.
Then again the preaching and practice of most preachers today is anti-Sabbath or "everyday is the Sabbath" or "since I'm saved and Christ fulfilled the Law I don't need to keep Sabbath because I rest in Him" sort of doctrine. Such rationalization is contrary to what Messiah did and preached. However, the spirit of antichrist is laid out in I John 2- do they deny that Jesus (Yahshua) was and is God manifested in the flesh?
Do they deny He is the Son of God? Christians and Catholics do not fit the role in that regard.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 8:16:30 PM
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DrIjames
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great reply. We have a word in the bible called "exhort" this being a Hebrew word, our English has no words that justify this meaning so it is a phrase that Theologians use. Translated the word exhort conveys the idea of "charging ones battery" It is hard to stay in the Word all the time and to walk in the Spirit. We sometimes can feel our faith being drained. this is why He told us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together.
We need the fellowship, that builds us up and exhorts us. Now I am not saying that you have to go to any particular church. The disciples were forbidden to enter the temple if they professed to be followers of Christ. But they would meet in the outer courts or even on the steps of the temple to worship. They then started to meet in each others homes
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 10:24:48 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
...Things are getting real confusing. It seems that a lot of Christians that hold fast to God's word are upset about it. Saying that enforcement to make the national holy day on Sunday is wrong. That the Sabbath should be a Saturday anyway,
Declaring either Saturday or Sunday, or any other day the official 'Sabbath' will ultimately do more harm than good. I don't see any value in pushing worship regulations on people who have no desire to worship God, or who don't worship the true God anyway.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
...and that Sunday worship stems from the worship of the Sun gods, and was introduced by Rome in an attempt to try to get more pagans interested in Christ. I'm sure this has truth, but Sunday worship has not worried us for a 1000 years, why is it an issue now?
From what I'm gathering, the attempt to attract pagans was not an issue until much later in Christianity. I read a Wiki blurb about Tertillian (because michahsixeight brought him up) and once again found evidence that the reason the early church moved away from Saturday worship was the belief that observance of old covenant laws (of worship) was in effect denying the sufficiency of Christ for salvation. Now I personally don't agree with that belief altogether myself, but it's another clear indication of what was in the hearts and minds of the early church.
What is so interesting is that he provides the earliest quote I've seen that verifies one of the reasons why Sunday became the prefered day of worship among the early christians (the other one being he was raised on the first day of the week). And it's the exact same reason officially given by the Catholic Church two hundred years later when they made Sunday worship a church law. This Constantine/ Catholic conspiracy, to whatever extent it's really true, was obviously playing off already well established beliefs regarding old covenant worship practices that had nothing to do with joining hands with pagans. Quite the opposite in fact.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 10:42:09 AM
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SpongeBlog
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Sonic,
The reason I do not feel compelled to observe the old covenant Sabbath requirement is because Paul says this...
"13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. (Galatians 5:13-16)
If you love others you will fulfill the requirements of the entire law. (He did not say if you keep the law you will fufill the requirements of love. Big, big difference.)
I have found this to be the liberating truth that God wants his people to embrace that lifts us out of all the dissensions and factions and fighting concerning who has the correct worship techniques. An argument now made meaningless by the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has brought us into worship 24/7 completely free of the restrictions for approaching God imposed by the law. True worship is no longer a particular food, or day, or season, or procedure, or place. And being made clean in Christ lifts us far and above the reach of any law of uncleanness that would come between us and fellowship with God and his people.
The altar we serve at is the altar of the heart, kept ablaze with the eternal fire of the Holy Spirit and covered with the sacrifice of Christ. How can a day, or a season, or a food even begin to compare to that kind of genuine worship?
Thank God for the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 12:11:39 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
...Things are getting real confusing. It seems that a lot of Christians that hold fast to God's word are upset about it. Saying that enforcement to make the national holy day on Sunday is wrong. That the Sabbath should be a Saturday anyway,
Declaring either Saturday or Sunday, or any other day the official 'Sabbath' will ultimately do more harm than good. I don't see any value in pushing worship regulations on people who have no desire to worship God, or who don't worship the true God anyway.
sponge is very right.
God forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That would be one of the most idiotic things that governement - any goverment can possibly do.
That Bimbo Harris or whatshername congresswoman is truly an idiot.
Not that being an idiot ever been a disqualifier for a politician...
Governmental regulation will cause enourmous, unspeakable harm to Chistianity.
You precious british brethren should and ought to worry about country being overcome by muslims from what my brit friends r telling me, so i share the concern about your and american future..
But making Sat or Sun or whatever weekly day a religous holiday will be devastating and promoting more fake religiousity then ever, as if we need more!
I am Israeli, i can write a book on this. Gotta run to class but promise to expand later...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 12:39:22 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...You precious british brethren should and ought to worry about country being overcome by muslims from what my brit friends r telling me, so i share the concern about your and american future..
This is so absolutely true. We don't understand the challenges that lie ahead for the western world as we slowly capitulate to this violent and oppressive religion. Hang on folks, you ain't seen nothing yet. And as long as we're hung up on religious externals like what is the true day of worship, instead of on character, we'll continue to look like just another world religion with an opinion about what worship technique and belief pleases God.
Character is the distinguishing and defining mark of the person who truly pleases God, not what worship technique we subscribe to. Sadly, the church as a whole does not seek to distinguish itself from the world this way, but instead relies on meaningless externals for the evidence of God's favor and pleasure in us. External worship has it's place, but it's hardly the evidence of the person who pleases God. It's dead wrong to seek assurance from God in your worship style and rely it as an indicator of having pleased God. Being a new creation filled with the fruit of the Spirit is the indicator of God's favor and from where we are to draw our assurance and comfort.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...making Sat or Sun or whatever weekly day a religous holiday will be devastating and promoting more fake religiousity then ever, as if we need more!
This is exactly true. I wonder if people really understand the significance of what you are saying here. It's already disheartening to see people think they've pleased God just because they went to church. If government gets involved it would only increase the deceit of those who think going to church is the measure of what it means to please God and to be okay with him. All the while being completely oblivious to the change of character he requires and which pleases him far and above any sacrifice we might make.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 3:22:27 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Being a new creation filled with the fruit of the Spirit is the indicator of God's favor and from where we are to draw our assurance and comfort.
Heb 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Interesting, I thought it was faith gifted to us by grace that was to provide us with assurance and comfort, and Adonai has promised to provide those fruits to those who seek to understand His character. Doesn't Paul tell us that there is no law against the fruits of Adonai's Spirit? It would follow that one who exhibited those fruits would not be braking any law by doing so. Therefore, to the extent that there is a law, say the Sabbath, the fruits of Adonai's Spirit would not cause one to violate that commandment.
quote:
It's already disheartening to see people think they've pleased God just because they went to church. If government gets involved it would only increase the deceit of those who think going to church is the measure of what it means to please God and to be okay with him.
Since "going to church" is nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures, I would agree with you. In fact, I would go even further, it is also disheartening to see people think they've pleased God just because they do not murder, commit adultry, steal, or bear false witness. It is too bad we have created laws to curb these behaviors because some might say they only increase the deceit of those who think refraining from doing those things is the measure of what it means to please Adonai. However, if implimented properly those laws do make for a better community.
Now, regarding Shabbat, I would not seek to impose it on another and, if it where a law, I would oppose excessive regulation, as Yeshua(Jesus) did. As long as one is not interfering with my obedience to Adonai's commandments and they do not wish to be part of the community, they can do as they please.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:10:03 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...You precious british brethren should and ought to worry about country being overcome by muslims from what my brit friends r telling me, so i share the concern about your and american future..
This is so absolutely true. We don't understand the challenges that lie ahead for the western world as we slowly capitulate to this violent and oppressive religion. Hang on folks, you ain't seen nothing yet. And as long as we're hung up on religious externals like what is the true day of worship, instead of on character, we'll continue to look like just another world religion with an opinion about what worship technique and belief pleases God.
Character is the distinguishing and defining mark of the person who truly pleases God, not what worship technique we subscribe to. Sadly, the church as a whole does not seek to distinguish itself from the world this way, but instead relies on meaningless externals for the evidence of God's favor and pleasure in us. External worship has it's place, but it's hardly the evidence of the person who pleases God. It's dead wrong to seek assurance from God in your worship style and rely it as an indicator of having pleased God. Being a new creation filled with the fruit of the Spirit is the indicator of God's favor and from where we are to draw our assurance and comfort.
Yes I know this is off the subject. But there is a rabbi by the name of Mosie Laurie, who is talking how we are to be warriors against the evil power of the Islam faith. That the koran is nothing but full of hate words towards the rest of civilazation. That if and when they do take over you will not have to worry about what day you will worship. But hope you have enough money in the bank to cover the tax they charge. So that you may worship in freedom somewhat freedom.
So if I was a seventh- day adventist I would worry about the RCC. But they who rather remove the head of someone then to compromise their religon.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 2:09:13 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Heb 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Interesting, I thought it was faith gifted to us by grace that was to provide us with assurance and comfort, and Adonai has promised to provide those fruits to those who seek to understand His character.
Faith can manifest itself in more than one way, but the scriptures teach us that it is faith that finds expression in godly character (the fruit of the Spirit) that makes 'our calling and election sure' (removes all doubt about the reality of our calling and election).
The most meaningful expression, or manifestation of faith--the one that counts--is love (Gal. 5:6). It is this manifestation of one's faith that gives us the measurable and actual evidence of our sure place in Christ.
It's misleading and deceitful to rely on worship requirements like circumcision for confirmation of God's pleasure in us and our place in Christ. Faith that does not sooner or later manifest itself in some kind of measurable change of character is not the kind of faith that saves. The faith that causes us to love is the faith that pleases God. That's the true worship, the true circumcision, of the people of God that he seeks(Phil. 3:2-9, John 4:23).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Doesn't Paul tell us that there is no law against the fruits of Adonai's Spirit? It would follow that one who exhibited those fruits would not be braking any law by doing so. Therefore, to the extent that there is a law, say the Sabbath, the fruits of Adonai's Spirit would not cause one to violate that commandment.
Sounds logical but then you would have to explain why walking in the fruit of the Spirit does not require us to keep the lawful command to sacrifice animals for sin, which we know it does not (even if the Temple was still standing), and why it also does not require us to keep the lawful command to be circumcised.
We don't violate the law when we are gentle, kind, long suffering, peacable, joyful, self-controlled, etc, because the command that fulfills the entire law is 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Gal. 5:14). Walking in the fruit of the Spirit will harm no person. Harming no person is the love that fulfills all the law (Romans 13:10). And keeping the command to love our neighbor (do them no harm) is how we prove or show that we also love God, and have kept that command.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...it is also disheartening to see people think they've pleased God just because they do not murder, commit adultry, steal, or bear false witness. It is too bad we have created laws to curb these behaviors because some might say they only increase the deceit of those who think refraining from doing those things is the measure of what it means to please Adonai.
Blue, those are the measure of what it means to please God. There's nothing deceitful about them. The Bible clearly teaches us that love (doing no harm--not murdering, not lying, not stealing, etc.) is how we fulfill the law and please God, and how we show that we belong to him. If you keep those commnands unconditionally you have the best evidence there is that you are at peace with God. <this is where someone will want to insert the hypothetical scenario about the righteous life of an unsaved person>
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now, regarding Shabbat, I would not seek to impose it on another and, if it where a law, I would oppose excessive regulation, as Yeshua(Jesus) did. As long as one is not interfering with my obedience to Adonai's commandments and they do not wish to be part of the community, they can do as they please.
And it is on this principle that this nation was founded. But sometimes I wonder if our founding fathers really were so naive to think that this meant we'd all be 'christians' of some sort or another. Did it ever occur to them that they were leaving the door open to the practice of the muslim religion, even in government?
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 3:48:17 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Heb 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Interesting, I thought it was faith gifted to us by grace that was to provide us with assurance and comfort, and Adonai has promised to provide those fruits to those who seek to understand His character.
Faith can manifest itself in more than one way, but the scriptures teach us that it is faith that finds expression in godly character (the fruit of the Spirit) that makes 'our calling and election sure' (removes all doubt about the reality of our calling and election).
The most meaningful expression, or manifestation of faith--the one that counts--is love (Gal. 5:6). It is this manifestation of one's faith that gives us the measurable and actual evidence of our sure place in Christ.
Then the faith Paul speaks of in Hebrews 11 does not count?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Doesn't Paul tell us that there is no law against the fruits of Adonai's Spirit? It would follow that one who exhibited those fruits would not be braking any law by doing so. Therefore, to the extent that there is a law, say the Sabbath, the fruits of Adonai's Spirit would not cause one to violate that commandment.
Sounds logical but then you would have to explain why walking in the fruit of the Spirit does not require us to keep the lawful command to sacrifice animals for sin, which we know it does not (even if the Temple was still standing), and why it also does not require us to keep the lawful command to be circumcised.
So, we don't end up flosting back and forth from one context to another, let me state that we have already agreed that nothing,including the fruits of Adonai's Spirit are required for salvation. So, the question then is required for what? For obedience to Adonai? We do not know that they are not required for that. You have repeatedly asserted that in the appropriate thread, but I never accepted that assertion.
quote:
We don't violate the law when we are gentle, kind, long suffering, peacable, joyful, self-controlled, etc, because the command that fulfills the entire law is 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Gal. 5:14). Walking in the fruit of the Spirit will harm no person. Harming no person is the love that fulfills all the law (Romans 13:10). And keeping the command to love our neighbor (do them no harm) is how we prove or show that we also love God, and have kept that command.
So, we don't need to acknowledge that He is infinite or our creator, or even that He exists? All we have to do is not harm our nieghbor. The atheists will be happy to hear that one.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...it is also disheartening to see people think they've pleased God just because they do not murder, commit adultry, steal, or bear false witness. It is too bad we have created laws to curb these behaviors because some might say they only increase the deceit of those who think refraining from doing those things is the measure of what it means to please Adonai.
Blue, those are the measure of what it means to please God. There's nothing deceitful about them. The Bible clearly teaches us that love (doing no harm--not murdering, not lying, not stealing, etc.) is how we fulfill the law and please God, and how we show that we belong to him. If you keep those commnands unconditionally you have the best evidence there is that you are at peace with God. <this is where someone will want to insert the hypothetical scenario about the righteous life of an unsaved person>
Before I follow your garden path scenerio, since my statement that "going to church" is nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures is on topic (some see that as a defintion of keeping Shabbat), and you did not comment on it, I presume you agree and we can dispense with this meaningless phrase. That said, I need not insert what you refer to as "hypothetical", for it is included in my statement regarding those who think they please Adonai just because they do those things. This is not a hypothetical at all, for until we define those terms in such a way that differentiates between those who have faith and those live as if they did, we have no way of distinguishing one from the other.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now, regarding Shabbat, I would not seek to impose it on another and, if it where a law, I would oppose excessive regulation, as Yeshua(Jesus) did. As long as one is not interfering with my obedience to Adonai's commandments and they do not wish to be part of the community, they can do as they please.
And it is on this principle that this nation was founded. But sometimes I wonder if our founding fathers really were so naive to think that this meant we'd all be 'christians' of some sort or another. Did it ever occur to them that they were leaving the door open to the practice of the muslim religion, even in government?
I am not sure which principle you are refering to since I stated three, only regulating to the extent of Adonai's commands, freedom to obey Adonai's commands, and freedom to associate with those who respect Adonai's commands. If we were talking about the nature of the constitution, your conjecture might be relevant. However, since we are talking about Shabbat and whether it should be inacted as law, what the founding fathers thought about the muslim religion is irrelevant, in my opinion.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 12/3/2008 3:57:30 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 9:10:09 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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(Okay, back to the Sabbath thread...)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then the faith Paul speaks of in Hebrews 11 does not count?
Some of those literal examples of faith in action would count for New Covenant believers, while others would not. They are examples of an underlying faith that manifested itself in patience and perseverace that we are to be encouraged by in our journey of faith in Christ. Some would be appropriate today, some would not. God wants us to love our neighbor as ourself, not build an ark, or route foreign armies to show we believe him.
The point of Hebrews is the excellency of this kind of faith (in Christ) over and above the observance of the OT system of sacrifice. The writer is showing how even the OT saints were justified by faith, showing themselves to have believed God by their perseverance, not by observance of OT worship stipulations, and laid hold of the promises of God because of that faith and perseverance.
The exhortation is for the Hebrews to also stay the course and continue in their faith in Christ, not OT Temple worship, and one day be rewarded just as they were, or will be. I'm confident you can see how that explanation fits in with the entire context of the letter to the Hebrews.
Faith lays hold of the promises of God apart from the sacrifices of OT worship law observance, and which stays the course to the end. The writer uses the examples of faith and perseverance seen in the lives of the highly esteemed and respected heros of the OT to persuade zealous Jews of the validity of justification by faith, not by OT worship.
And that is the point for this thread. Faith is what solicits God pleasure God, not the worship stipultions of the old covenant that have now been made obsolete by the work of Christ. Faith in Christ is the worship that pleases God--faith that finds expression in love for others, not in the observance of OT worship laws; and that we should not rely on the OT system of worship, things such as circumcision, for the confirmation of that faith.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, we don't end up flosting back and forth from one context to another, let me state that we have already agreed that nothing,including the fruits of Adonai's Spirit are required for salvation. So, the question then is required for what? For obedience to Adonai? We do not know that they are not required for that. You have repeatedly asserted that in the appropriate thread, but I never accepted that assertion.
Yes, the fruit of the Spirit is our required obedience. Fruitless branches will be thrown into the fire and burned (John 15). Fields that only produce thorns and thistles are burned, not harvested (Heb. 6). Both are evidences of a person who does not have the seal of the Spirit (IOW, not saved). That makes it a required obedience that we are expected to bring forth from the Spirit given us at salvation.
If you love, you will perform the fruit of the Spirit. Paul plainly tells us it is this expression of faith--a love that causes us to not harm others (i.e. walk in the fruit of the Spirit)--which counts as evidence of salvation, even above Abraham's mark of faith--his circumcision. The absence of the deeds of the flesh, not the absence of the foreskin is what is commanded for post-ressurection men, a circumcision now made possible for all by the work of Christ.
Even if literal circumcision is a genuine act of faith for someone, it still counts for nothing as a required obedience to God. You're no better off if you do it, or don't do it. It's value is to you alone. The manifestation of faith that counts is love. That's plainly stated in scripture. No interpretation needed...only the eyes of the Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, we don't need to acknowledge that He is infinite or our creator, or even that He exists? All we have to do is not harm our nieghbor. The atheists will be happy to hear that one.
Loving others in all the ways the Bible says (not just the atheists way) is proof of our acknowlegement of God. Anyone who has the Spirit has acknowledged God.
You have convinced me that you do not know what it truly means to love as God loves. Atheists are not known for their power over greed, and envy, and lust. But it is true you will find them working in a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving Day and feeling quite proud about it, and using it to shame us genuine christians (it's funny how they know who to distinguish themselves from). I know these kind of people. They don't fool me for a minute. Literal acts of compassion don't stand alone in the life of the true christian. But they do in the life of the works oriented atheist.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...since my statement that "going to church" is nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures is on topic (some see that as a defintion of keeping Shabbat), and you did not comment on it, I presume you agree and we can dispense with this meaningless phrase.
I wish we could, but as I have shared in past posts, meeting together seems to have erroneously been made the centerpiece of Sabbath keeping--Saturday or Sunday (as you may remember, I suspect that's a misinterpretation of scripture). This is especially the case with Protestants and Catholics, but also to Messianics who frown on Sunday church services.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I need not insert what you refer to as "hypothetical", for it is included in my statement regarding those who think they please Adonai just because they do those things. This is not a hypothetical at all, for until we define those terms in such a way that differentiates between those who have faith and those live as if they did, we have no way of distinguishing one from the other.
I disagree wholeheartedly. We can distinguish between the false and the genuine, even among seemingly moral atheists. The hypothetical situation I'm refering to is the suggestion that these moral atheists are really living the obedient christian life and possess the characteristics of Christ apart from having a relationship with God. It just isn't so.
My experience with them shows them to be filthy, greedy, angry, abusive, divisive, and lustful people. Their soup kitchen duties that they brag about and try to shame real christians with don't fool me for a minute. And they shouldn't fool any christian who is acquainted with what it really means to live according to the Spirit. It's a complete package, not just giving a dollar to a homeless person.
And I don't care to talk about the constitution and our founding fathers. No offense to anybody, but that's mostly a yawner for me. Maybe some other time.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 1:51:38 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
(Okay, back to the Sabbath thread...)
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then the faith Paul speaks of in Hebrews 11 does not count?
Some of those literal examples of faith in action would count for New Covenant believers, while others would not. They are examples of an underlying faith that manifested itself in patience and perseverace that we are to be encouraged by in our journey of faith in Christ. Some would be appropriate today, some would not. God wants us to love our neighbor as ourself, not build an ark, or route foreign armies to show we believe him.
This response was to your point that "love" is all that counts. At this point it does no good for you to waste space and time listing all of those things you say don't count. How do we determine what things do count? If Adonai were to tell me to build an ark, should I say to Him, "Sorry, Noach already did that."? If He were to tell me to route foreign armies should I say, "We don't do that any more."? Or, should I do as He directs?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, we don't end up flosting back and forth from one context to another, let me state that we have already agreed that nothing, including the fruits of Adonai's Spirit are required for salvation. So, the question then is required for what? For obedience to Adonai? We do not know that they are not required for that. You have repeatedly asserted that in the appropriate thread, but I never accepted that assertion.
Yes, the fruit of the Spirit is our required obedience. Fruitless branches will be thrown into the fire and burned (John 15). Fields that only produce thorns and thistles are burned, not harvested (Heb. 6). Both are evidences of a person who does not have the seal of the Spirit (IOW, not saved). That makes it a required obedience that we are expected to bring forth from the Spirit given us at salvation.
Sorry, if I confused you with the double negative. I stated it that way so it would mirror your assertion that "we know" certain things are not required. I do not know that. You have asserted that, but I have never accepted that assertion.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, we don't need to acknowledge that He is infinite or our creator, or even that He exists? All we have to do is not harm our nieghbor. The atheists will be happy to hear that one.
Loving others in all the ways the Bible says (not just the atheists way) is proof of our acknowlegement of God. Anyone who has the Spirit has acknowledged God.
Good, maybe we are getting somewhere. It is not just love but a particular kind of love. What are all of these ways the bible says and how do they acknowledge Adonai?
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You have convinced me that you do not know what it truly means to love as God loves. Atheists are not known for their power over greed, and envy, and lust. But it is true you will find them working in a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving Day and feeling quite proud about it, and using it to shame us genuine christians (it's funny how they know who to distinguish themselves from). I know these kind of people. They don't fool me for a minute. Literal acts of compassion don't stand alone in the life of the true christian. But they do in the life of the works oriented atheist.
I bow to your great wisdom, a man who can discern the Spirit of Adonai in all men. Unfortunately, not all of us possess such wisdom. Please, teach me how to read men's hearts, so I to can make judgements regarding their status before Adonai?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...since my statement that "going to church" is nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures is on topic (some see that as a defintion of keeping Shabbat), and you did not comment on it, I presume you agree and we can dispense with this meaningless phrase.
I wish we could, but as I have shared in past posts, meeting together seems to have erroneously been made the centerpiece of Sabbath keeping--Saturday or Sunday (as you may remember, I suspect that's a misinterpretation of scripture). This is especially the case with Protestants and Catholics, but also to Messianics who frown on Sunday church services.
So, how does sitting across the table from another man discussing Scripture, translate into "going to church".
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I need not insert what you refer to as "hypothetical", for it is included in my statement regarding those who think they please Adonai just because they do those things. This is not a hypothetical at all, for until we define those terms in such a way that differentiates between those who have faith and those live as if they did, we have no way of distinguishing one from the other.
I disagree wholeheartedly. We can distinguish between the false and the genuine, even among seemingly moral atheists. The hypothetical situation I'm refering to is the suggestion that these moral atheists are really living the obedient christian life and possess the characteristics of Christ apart from having a relationship with God. It just isn't so.
My experience with them shows them to be filthy, greedy, angry, abusive, divisive, and lustful people. Their soup kitchen duties that they brag about and try to shame real christians with don't fool me for a minute. And they shouldn't fool any christian who is acquainted with what it really means to live according to the Spirit. It's a complete package, not just giving a dollar to a homeless person.
Again, I don't know how you can tell who is an athiest and who professes to follow the "spirit of the law" without being told. I have known people who claim to live according to the Spirit as ardently as you do who fit the description you just gave above. So tell me, what does it "really" mean to live according to the Spirit?
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And I don't care to talk about the constitution and our founding fathers. No offense to anybody, but that's mostly a yawner for me. Maybe some other time.
Ok, I already said that the answer to the question "Did it ever occur to them that they were leaving the door open to the practice of the muslim religion, even in government?" was irrelevent, but it was your question. I'll try to be more discerning regarding which of your questions are boring and which are not in the future.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/7/2008 2:37:09 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...How do we determine what things do count?
The deeds that count are the deeds motivated by God's love inside of us that benefit other people. With the help of the scriptures we learn to recognize the impulse of God's love inside of us and how that godly love finds practical expression towards other people. As we learn and grow in the knowledge of these things we strive more and more to keep the garden of our hearts weeded so those things can flourish and increase (Mark 4:19).
Sabbath keeping may indeed be an expression of one's faith, but it simply is not the expression of faith that shows we are like God and have his nature birthed inside of us. It's wrong to think God requires us to pursue and rely on Sabbath keeping, or any other OT law of worship as the expression of faith that confirms our relationship with him. He says loving others is how we do that.
Love is the expression of faith that shows you know him, and that he knows you. That's what we should be striving for, and which counts. That way you won't be deceived about whether you have truly believed God unto salvation. Many, many people are deceived by their religous worship and service, and think that they are okay with God because they do it (especially if they are convinced it's the closest to the kind God wants). Character is what counts.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If Adonai were to tell me to build an ark, should I say to Him, "Sorry, Noach already did that."? If He were to tell me to route foreign armies should I say, "We don't do that any more."? Or, should I do as He directs?
Do as he directs of course. But even Paul knew the ministry he received, the race he was assigned to run, the task he was given to complete (Acts 20:24) was not a more important matter of faith than control of his own body (1 Cor. 9:27). I've been saying this all along--gifts, callings, worship, empowerments, sacrifices, etc. are in no way comparable to the faith that finds it's expression in love towards others and serves as the confirmation of having pleased God.
Jesus speaks of the many people who will on the day of judgement boast of their works and their service, and their association with him but who, nevertheless, practiced lawlessness (Matt. 7:21-23 Luke 13:26-27). There is no sacrifice of service that counts like the obedience seen in a changed character. Character is the measure of saving faith, not mighty works, or sacrifices of service, or worship. I hope these scriptures are sufficient to prove my point to you.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Sorry, if I confused you with the double negative. I stated it that way so it would mirror your assertion that "we know" certain things are not required. I do not know that. You have asserted that, but I have never accepted that assertion.
I assume you're talking about animal sacrifice for sin, and literal circumcision(?)
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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Loving others in all the ways the Bible says (not just the atheists way) is proof of our acknowlegement of God. Anyone who has the Spirit has acknowledged God.
Good, maybe we are getting somewhere. It is not just love but a particular kind of love. What are all of these ways the bible says and how do they acknowledge Adonai?
The particular kind of love that counts is the way God loves, which is different than how we love. God finds value in other people apart from whatever benefit he can derive from being nice to them. That's why he loves all people. We do not love that way. We only show interest in people who can benefit us in some way.
We are selfish. Our desire, our love, our attraction for others is conditional on their value to us. Our love is motivated by and based on whatever benefit we expect to derive from giving our time and energies away to another person. If there's reasonable payback we will invest the time and energy necessary to bless another person.
If we do not love like God loves and we perceive someone to be of no value to us, we will likely rob that person of the good we owe them. But if we love them like God loves and do them good, then we show that we have ackowledged and accepted God's truth by walking in that truth. Acknowlegement of God is acknowledgement of his ways. We show reverance for God and his ways by perfecting holiness within us. (1 Cor. 7:1)
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I bow to your great wisdom, a man who can discern the Spirit of Adonai in all men. Unfortunately, not all of us possess such wisdom. Please, teach me how to read men's hearts, so I to can make judgements regarding their status before Adonai?
You act as though we have no Biblical precedant whatsoever for judging people by their fruit. There are several scriptures that tell us to discern people by their deeds.
Our discernment of other people's behavior will increase as we learn more and more what godly character looks like on the outside. As I've been saying all along, a person's character as expressed in their behavior is where you look for the evidence that counts in regard to a person's relationship with God, and who are like him because they know him. Sabbath day observance is not one of those behaviors that conclusively reveals character.
"13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition (in the heart of a man), there you find disorder and every evil practice." (James 3:13-16)
See? In the example disorder and evil practice is how we can discern a person. They are evidences of things like envy and selfish ambition in a person's heart. Those who live like that have not acknowledged (have denied) the truth. But people who have embraced and acknowledged the truth are characterized by the fruit of the Spirit...
"17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:17-18)
See, the Bible shows us it's not so impossible to know what's in the heart of a man.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So, how does sitting across the table from another man discussing Scripture, translate into "going to church".
Meeting with the saints is going to church. I contend it is no longer a matter legislated by law as it was under the old covenant (to whatever extent it may or may not have been legislated in regard to the weekly Sabbath).
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Again, I don't know how you can tell who is an athiest and who professes to follow the "spirit of the law" without being told. I have known people who claim to live according to the Spirit as ardently as you do who fit the description you just gave above.
'Claiming' to live according to the Spirit means nothing. What day of the week you meet with other believers means nothing. Resting on the 7th or 1st day means nothing. What kind of person you are is how others can tell if you live and walk by the Spirit. The scriptures are very, very clear on this.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So tell me, what does it "really" mean to live according to the Spirit?
Be filled with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, forgiveness, compassion, generosity, trust, humility, hope, perseverance, calmness. These are the important things that come from having faith in God--the things that count.
And we could list all the good deeds that come out of the person who is filled with the fruit of the Spirit just listed. IOW, how that fruit manifests itself in actual deeds to be seen and measured...
Not boasting, not being angered easily, delighting in the truth, protecting others, blessing those who curse us, not taking revenge, being hospitable, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, honoring others above ourselves, being impartial and unconditional, surrending one's rights for the good of others, not taking revenge, not being jealous or quarrelsome, staying away from your neighbor's wife, speaking only that which builds others up, not complaining, helping the weak, returning good for evil, taking care of our families, saying 'hi' to our enemies, visiting the imprisoned, submitting to authority, not retaliating, bearing up under unjust suffering...
All these things prove our relationship with God. They prove the presence of the Spirit in a person. OT worship laws like Sabbath keeping do not. It's a mistake to rely on Sabbath keeping as a required obedience of God that proves your relationship with him.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 12/7/2008 2:49:51 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2008 4:19:54 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...How do we determine what things do count?
The deeds that count are the deeds motivated by God's love inside of us that benefit other people. With the help of the scriptures we learn to recognize the impulse of God's love inside of us and how that godly love finds practical expression towards other people. As we learn and grow in the knowledge of these things we strive more and more to keep the garden of our hearts weeded so those things can flourish and increase (Mark 4:19).
So, Adam did no deeds that count before eve. Yeshua(Jesus) and Moshe'(Moses) did no deeds that count while spending 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness? Private prayer is a deed that does not count?
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Love is the expression of faith that shows you know him, and that he knows you. That's what we should be striving for, and which counts. That way you won't be deceived about whether you have truly believed God unto salvation. Many, many people are deceived by their religous worship and service, and think that they are okay with God because they do it (especially if they are convinced it's the closest to the kind God wants). Character is what counts.
Nothing we do makes us okay with God. This is about graditude and obedience, not acceptance.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If Adonai were to tell me to build an ark, should I say to Him, "Sorry, Noach already did that."? If He were to tell me to route foreign armies should I say, "We don't do that any more."? Or, should I do as He directs?
Do as he directs of course. But even Paul knew the ministry he received, the race he was assigned to run, the task he was given to complete (Acts 20:24) was not a more important matter of faith than control of his own body (1 Cor. 9:27). I've been saying this all along--gifts, callings, worship, empowerments, sacrifices, etc. are in no way comparable to the faith that finds it's expression in love towards others and serves as the confirmation of having pleased God.
Again, nothing is of value if it is done fro the purpose of recieving a crown. That said, neither of those verses creatr a higherarchy of works. Just as no work is acceptable to Adonai if it is done out of self interest, so, any work is equally acceptable to Adonai as long as it is in accordance with what He commands.
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Jesus speaks of the many people who will on the day of judgement boast of their works and their service, and their association with him but who, nevertheless, practiced lawlessness (Matt. 7:21-23 Luke 13:26-27). There is no sacrifice of service that counts like the obedience seen in a changed character. Character is the measure of saving faith, not mighty works, or sacrifices of service, or worship. I hope these scriptures are sufficient to prove my point to you.
Yes, not even "love" or "character" are acceptable if they are not well defined. Many will say they loved their nieghbor or that they were people of character, but will be rejected as lawless, because they did not view these from Adonai's prospective.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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Loving others in all the ways the Bible says (not just the atheists way) is proof of our acknowlegement of God. Anyone who has the Spirit has acknowledged God.
Good, maybe we are getting somewhere. It is not just love but a particular kind of love. What are all of these ways the bible says and how do they acknowledge Adonai?
The particular kind of love that counts is the way God loves, which is different than how we love. God finds value in other people apart from whatever benefit he can derive from being nice to them. That's why he loves all people. We do not love that way. We only show interest in people who can benefit us in some way.
We are selfish. Our desire, our love, our attraction for others is conditional on their value to us. Our love is motivated by and based on whatever benefit we expect to derive from giving our time and energies away to another person. If there's reasonable payback we will invest the time and energy necessary to bless another person.
If we do not love like God loves and we perceive someone to be of no value to us, we will likely rob that person of the good we owe them. But if we love them like God loves and do them good, then we show that we have ackowledged and accepted God's truth by walking in that truth. Acknowlegement of God is acknowledgement of his ways. We show reverance for God and his ways by perfecting holiness within us. (1 Cor. 7:1)
That is all fine and seem s echo what I just said. However, it does not nullify keeping Shabbat, unless you believe that is a selfish act.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I bow to your great wisdom, a man who can discern the Spirit of Adonai in all men. Unfortunately, not all of us possess such wisdom. Please, teach me how to read men's hearts, so I to can make judgements regarding their status before Adonai?
You act as though we have no Biblical precedant whatsoever for judging people by their fruit. There are several scriptures that tell us to discern people by their deeds.
Our discernment of other people's behavior will increase as we learn more and more what godly character looks like on the outside. As I've been saying all along, a person's character as expressed in their behavior is where you look for the evidence that counts in regard to a person's relationship with God, and who are like him because they know him. Sabbath day observance is not one of those behaviors that conclusively reveals character.
"13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition (in the heart of a man), there you find disorder and every evil practice." (James 3:13-16)
See? In the example disorder and evil practice is how we can discern a person. They are evidences of things like envy and selfish ambition in a person's heart. Those who live like that have not acknowledged (have denied) the truth. But people who have embraced and acknowledged the truth are characterized by the fruit of the Spirit...
"17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:17-18)
See, the Bible shows us it's not so impossible to know what's in the heart of a man.
Yes, we have indications on which to decide how we should act toward another person. However, I do not believe we can make an eturnal judgement. Envy and selfish ambition are internal motivations. If I were to accredit them to someone, then I would be presuming. As I stated before, it is acceptable to make certain presumptions based on peoples actions so that I can help them and protect myself and others from the consequences. However, I can not truly know their motivations. With regard to the topic at hand, whether one keeps Shabbat or not gives me an indication of how they view Adonai and the Scriptures. However, I can not say they are motivated by evil because of that.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So, how does sitting across the table from another man discussing Scripture, translate into "going to church".
Meeting with the saints is going to church. I contend it is no longer a matter legislated by law as it was under the old covenant (to whatever extent it may or may not have been legislated in regard to the weekly Sabbath).
So, are you now saying that it is not important to seek out any fellowship with another believer on Shabbat?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So tell me, what does it "really" mean to live according to the Spirit?
Be filled with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, forgiveness, compassion, generosity, trust, humility, hope, perseverance, calmness. These are the important things that come from having faith in God--the things that count.
And we could list all the good deeds that come out of the person who is filled with the fruit of the Spirit just listed. IOW, how that fruit manifests itself in actual deeds to be seen and measured...
Not boasting, not being angered easily, delighting in the truth, protecting others, blessing those who curse us, not taking revenge, being hospitable, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, honoring others above ourselves, being impartial and unconditional, surrending one's rights for the good of others, not taking revenge, not being jealous or quarrelsome, staying away from your neighbor's wife, speaking only that which builds others up, not complaining, helping the weak, returning good for evil, taking care of our families, saying 'hi' to our enemies, visiting the imprisoned, submitting to authority, not retaliating, bearing up under unjust suffering...
All these things prove our relationship with God. They prove the presence of the Spirit in a person. OT worship laws like Sabbath keeping do not. It's a mistake to rely on Sabbath keeping as a required obedience of God that proves your relationship with him.
That looks like a list of commandments to me. Of course, one would want to do these thing with the proper motivation. So, it comes down to which list one chooses, once one has the proper motivation. Doesn't it?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2008 9:00:03 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, Adam did no deeds that count before eve. Yeshua(Jesus) and Moshe'(Moses) did no deeds that count while spending 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness? Private prayer is a deed that does not count?
Right. Prayer, in and of itself, is nothing. It's a tool, or method for relating to God, just like going to church, reading your Bible, or fasting. They have no virtue in and of themselves. They are ways that we prepare ourselves for doing what really counts--loving other people.
Way too many people take false comfort believing they have satisfactorily done God's will by doing these things, even thinking that is the very definition of what it means to please God. But you can not do those things (even exceptionally) then treat other people badly and expect God to be pleased with your personal sacrifices of worship. You are deceived if you think otherwise. This teaching comes right out of the OT.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Nothing we do makes us okay with God. This is about graditude and obedience, not acceptance.
Only Christ makes us okay with God as far as acceptance in salvation goes. But we have a clear obligation to please God now that we are saved (Eph. 5:10,17 Rom. 8:8,12). Many christians think things like going to church and performing other sacrifices of worship, in and of themselves, are what pleases God. Completely false. Faith that finds expression in a changed character (how you treat other people) is what matters. Gratitude and obedience are most definately part of that life that pleases God. No one is dismissing that. What I'm dismissing is what some believe is the most important expression of our gratitude and obedience. It ain't what day you go to church on, that's most certain in scripture.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Again, nothing is of value if it is done fro the purpose of recieving a crown. That said, neither of those verses creatr a higherarchy of works. Just as no work is acceptable to Adonai if it is done out of self interest, so, any work is equally acceptable to Adonai as long as it is in accordance with what He commands.
Blue, this just isn't true at all. Do you need evidence of a heirarchy of works--the heirarchy of works Paul plainly says in Galatians 5:6 exists? Tell me the following passages do not teach a heirarchy of works:
"...if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matt. 5:23-24)
Based on this passage, what is more important--offering up a sacrifice of worship, or being at peace with your brother? Don't play the game that this doesn't mean worship doesn't have to be performed (that's not the point). What it proves is what I am defending in this thread, and that is how we get along with other people is what matters far and above our external sacrifice of worship. So much so that it is the prerequisite for offering acceptable sacrifices to God. Pretty profound teaching, but it's plain as day in the scriptures. No interpretation needed.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...not even "love" or "character" are acceptable if they are not well defined. Many will say they loved their nieghbor or that they were people of character, but will be rejected as lawless, because they did not view these from Adonai's prospective.
Who cares what people think and say about these things? There is no excuse. I listed the lengthy qualities and attributes of godly love in my last post. I don't know if you realize it or not, but each one was based on a very specific scripture, not my generalized feelings or opinions.
Nobody will be with excuse. The Bible teaches us what it means to love the way we're supposed to. I'm not abandoning my position because some people are not able to acknowledge the truth, even at the judgement, and will still be full of the excuses of their willfull ignorance.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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