RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
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[Poll]
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How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
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| Pre-Trib |
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| Post-trib |
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| Mid-trib |
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Total Votes : 74
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(last vote on : 1/6/2009 7:44:26 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/17/2007 12:16:52 AM
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bob97
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quote:
I hope he doesn't get expelled by the demon-board. LOL.
Oops, I meant deacon board. lol. Well, maybe not.
Sadly I know exactly how he is going to handle the rapture issue, he is going to preach around it and not identify the point of rapture. I’ve told him he was a coward but I guess he wants to keep his job. The Church is predominantly pre trib.
By the way Frankie, he is a Rosenthal believer. I don’t think his position has influenced me; I pretty much came to my own conclusion.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/17/2007 8:51:45 AM
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chalkstc
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Bob,
quote:
By the way Frankie, he is a Rosenthal believer. I don’t think his position has influenced me; I pretty much came to my own conclusion.
Whether we want to believe it or not, we all are influenced by those we hold in esteem. Rosenthal defintely "tickled my ears" when I first read his book. Made a lot of sense to the logic.
But be ing a Berean Christian made me or forced me to take a second look to see whether the things he said were so. I found them wanting.
The wrath premise and the whole church in heaven did not agree with all the texts. But I did not throw out the baby with the bath water. Most of his teaching is sound. It is the timing issues that I disagree with....................Church taken to heaven before the temporal wrath is poured out.
Remember, he like most of us, came out of a pretrib background. The error now is that the Rev is chronological, chapter by chapter and event by event. But we cannot get beyond the text that says the "Gathering" and the SC are "immediately AFTER the Trib of those days".
Thus you must prove that the trib is over when we get to Rev 7. It is far from over as Christ Comes after the Seventh Trump is blown which is after the sixth vial and at the seventh..........
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV
He comes as a thief to judge the wicked. Thus we are already raised to the air at this juncture. Why? Because the wicked are destroyed when he touches down..................We first, the wicked second.......................
2 Thess 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV
Note the chrono.................we are glorified when the wicked are about to be destroyed. It is on the same last day. See Jn 6 and Jn 12:48.
Frankie
< Message edited by chalkstc -- 11/17/2007 9:00:04 AM >
_____________________________
Prov 27:17 iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/24/2007 1:42:15 PM
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breanne
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I haven't posted here in a while, so here's my final response to this thread.
ZAR, if we are in the thousand year reign like you believe that we are. Then please tell me when Armageddon happened. Did I miss it in the news?
Doesn't the bible say that the lion and the lamb shall lay side by side. Where is that happening?
Also, if we are in the thousand year reign, Satan is supposed to be bound too as well as his angels. Then how come people are still being tormented by demon activity and posession?
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
So we are either not in the millennium, or it's already over. Because Satan is still running lose and him and his angels are tormenting people.
Revelation 16 talks about the 7 bowls of wrath. What happened with the beast with the 10 heads and horns?
Here's Revelations 20 where it talks about the judgement and the first resurrection of the dead.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
In the scriptures following it talks about the judgement of those who were dead and resurrected to face judgement. So there is our thousand years of reigning with Christ and then the start of the judgement.
Please explain to me how all this has already happened? Because I certainly do not see this happening:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
Isa 11:6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.
Isa 11:7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den.
Isa 11:9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.
If I missed any of this, please tell me when it happened.
_____________________________
Previously known as:
flannel_pants /
"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses." - 1 Timothy 6:12
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/8/2007 7:45:36 PM
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Jim_Stanton
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quote:
How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
I'm not going to be here when the "poo poo hits the fan"
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/8/2007 8:47:38 PM
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David-West
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From: The State of Jefferson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jim_Stanton
quote:
How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
I'm not going to be here when the "poo poo hits the fan"
I want to be here. I say bring it on.
_____________________________
Yippee ki yay...
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/8/2007 10:06:28 PM
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Lapidoth
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I don't want to be here, but I know I will be here.
So, it's the blood of the Lamb and the patience of the saints
that will prevail.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/10/2007 3:41:13 PM
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cybrjewls
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I would classify myself as a 'pan-tribber'. That in the last seven years, the two witnesses will start witnessing for 1260 then they will be killed by the beast headed by the false prophet. Then for 1260 days the saints of the Most High will be persecuted. Then for 75 days (1335-1260) the Rapture and the trumpet Judgments will be poured out upon the beasts kingdom with 144000 left behind sealed and protected from these Judgments.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/23/2008 3:56:38 AM
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jerowhy
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I believe that the 'raptura' event will take place after all nations go to war against the saints of God during the mark of the false prophet trial completing the fifth seal of the Martyrs to be added to the Joint Priests along With Christ Jesus in The Millennium Reign. The Dragon will be hooked: Gog and Magog (The Dragon prophet and Babylon) and will spew forth a torrent at the Woman as written in Revelation whereby 1 out of every 3 will be the remnant refined and tested when The Son of Man appears among them. They will weep and wail for Him as for an Only Son as Prophesied in Zechariah. The Saints of God Almighty will endure worldwide war and conquering for 1260 days or 3 1/2 years or 42 months plus 30-75 days (for the rapture window whereby no one still knows the day or hour when We will be caught up in the air at the first of the seven trumpets). The Temple sacrifice and offering will continue until the middle of the seven or until 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days (plus, perhaps 3 1/2 days for the witnesses to lay in the street and refused burial by the unbelieving nations and peoples: for wherever there is a dead body (the false prophet), there the vultures will gather.), then the abomination that causes the desolation decrees Prophesied about in Daniel and Revelation as trumpet and bowl Judgments will be set up in the Holy Place where the false prophet sits in the Temple Holy Place pitching his royal tents between the seas proclaiming himself as though he is greater than God. He will be able to do many signs and wonders to deceive even the People of God, if possible.
In Daniel is written regarding how the end of the ongoing spiritual war will be like a flood, at the end of the war Desolations are Decreed. In the mean time as we await the last 7 year period (For it is not for us to know the times and the seasons Set by The Father's Own Authority and Sovereignly Placed By Him), we can perceive that the fruits on the grapevines or fig tree will come to its season and the harvest into the Kings Barn and the winepress of fury will come to pass as written.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crossbearer777
also what scriptural reasons do you have to believe what you believe about the rapture?
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/23/2008 4:03:35 AM >
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/24/2008 9:43:36 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
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Shalom, crossbearer777.
I'm a bit of an anomaly. I don't believe that the last shavuah (Hebrew for "seven," translated "week") of Dani'el's prophecy has been completely fulfilled, so I'm not a Preterist, but I do believe that half of it has been fulfilled. The first half was, by my view, the earthly ministry of the Messiah during His first advent, ending with Him being cut off--crucified on the Roman execution stake.
The second half of the shavuah is yet to be fulfilled as described in Revelation.
Thus, when the second half begins, it begins in the middle of the shavuah.
Furthermore, to complicate matters, I believe that the "Rapture" (Greek: harpazo meaning "to snatch away") is associated with the seventh shofar blast as promised, the last shofar blast of the age, which occurs AFTER the breaking of the seven seals on the curse scroll, AFTER the seven thunderclaps, and AFTER the seven shofar blasts; however, it occurs BEFORE the seven bowls of the seven last plagues. (The seven last plagues are similar to the seven shofar blast judgments; however there are significant differences to prove that they are not the same events re-told.) It also occurs BEFORE the destruction of Secret Bavel, BEFORE the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), and BEFORE the supper of the Great God!
(It is also WAY before the final battle with Gog of Magog, which doesn't happen until AFTER the Millennium, not in a war before.)
Therefore, I DO believe in premillennialism, and I believe that a Rapture is associated with the Resurrection-of-the-Just which is associated in turn with the sounding of the last shofar, but I don't believe that I fall into any of the common scenarios for when that event will occur. I am not a Pretribulational Rapturist because 3-1/2 years are already over. I am not a Midtribulational Rapturist or a Prewrath Rapturist because (1) I don't believe that the Rapture occurs at the beginning of what is left of the shavuah, the half-way point in the shavuah, (2) I don't believe that we need to escape the Wrath because God can protect those who are His in the middle of the Wrath, and because (3) the Rapture is not a trip to "Heaven" but is a way for the Messiah to convey His people to Isra'el with Him. The closest position to what I am is a Posttribulational Rapturist, but I don't really fall into that classification, either, because so much of the book of Revelation follows the Resurrection/Rapture.
So, what am I?
Retrobyter
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/26/2008 8:48:24 PM
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Kath
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/2/2008 1:21:00 PM
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navyblueret
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I voted 'Pre-Trib,' as IMO, the Bible supports that with little things like:
That which restrains must be removed (the HS), since the Holly Spirit lives within us, then we must also be removed.
Of the seventy 'Shavua' of Daniel, the first 69 are complete, and the last seven is the two sections of the Tribulation. The first 3.5 years being the period of delusion of the masses, allowing the AC to gain full power, and the second 3.5 being the period of full power, and persecution of Israel and Christians, unto the return of Messiah, in Power.
The wedding feast is normally seven days/(years), and I desire to be part of the whole feast, while Tribulation and Great Tribulation is being fulfilled, on mortal filled earth.
Once Messiah returns, to end the Great Tribulation, He immediately goes into the days of judgement, which starts the Millennial reign of Messiah.
The bride/Church, will not let the Bridegroom go back to work until after the Feast, thus = Pre-Trib rapture.
Just a thought.
In Messiah, His Shalom. Arley
< Message edited by navyblueret -- 12/2/2008 1:28:20 PM >
_____________________________
In the name of Messiah, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/2/2008 1:24:18 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Of the seventy 'Shavua' of Daniel, the first 69 are complete, and the last seven is the two sections of the Tribulation. The first 3.5 years being the period of delusion of the masses, allowing the AC to gain full power, and the second 3.5 being the period of full power, and persecution of Israel and Christians, unto the return of Messiah, in Power.
Well Arley...we agree on the above anyway.
Thanks brother!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/2/2008 1:33:59 PM
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chrisb743
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Well.. I've spent much time thinking about this.. I use to be a pre tribber.. I can honestly say though.. I just dont know.. Either way.. pre, mid, post... Dont have a clue... I just have to have faith that whatever comes.. My Lord will deliver me.. It may get ugly. But my Lord will take care of me. I think you can argue this subject for days and never get two sides to agree. Either way you believe it still comes down to faith... The word also says that God is not the author of confusion. If you read this thread it looks very confusing.. A lot of smart people.. A lot of well read people.. The truth... Jesus will come in his way, and in his time.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/2/2008 1:37:49 PM
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bob97
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And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Rev 9:4
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/2/2008 3:43:24 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Arley (aka navyblueret).
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
I voted 'Pre-Trib,' as IMO, the Bible supports that with little things like:
That which restrains must be removed (the HS), since the Holly Spirit lives within us, then we must also be removed.
Of the seventy 'Shavua' of Daniel, the first 69 are complete, and the last seven is the two sections of the Tribulation. The first 3.5 years being the period of delusion of the masses, allowing the AC to gain full power, and the second 3.5 being the period of full power, and persecution of Israel and Christians, unto the return of Messiah, in Power.
The wedding feast is normally seven days/(years), and I desire to be part of the whole feast, while Tribulation and Great Tribulation is being fulfilled, on mortal filled earth.
Once Messiah returns, to end the Great Tribulation, He immediately goes into the days of judgement, which starts the Millennial reign of Messiah.
The bride/Church, will not let the Bridegroom go back to work until after the Feast, thus = Pre-Trib rapture.
Just a thought.
In Messiah, His Shalom. Arley
LOL! Are we getting into the Christmas spirit early? "Holly Spirit?"
First, a clarification for you: "shavua`" means "seven" (singular and masculine). The plural is "shavu`iym."
I just have a couple of questions: First, I'm familiar with the concept that "he who letteth" refers to the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit). I was taught that myself, and I used to believe that. But, how is a Member of the Godhead, as Trinitarians say, "removed?!" Isn't it the teaching that God is "omnipresent" (always present) and "infinite?" How is that possible? And, if it's NOT possible, how is He the One to whom this verse refers as "he who letteth (or restrains)?"
Second, how is the Church (as you have it written) the "Bride" when Isra'el is called the "Wife?" Is God a polygamist? And, if you (as I have heard from others) say that the Church is the "Bride of Christ," well, don't Trinitarians (people who believe in the Trinity) believe that Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) is just as much God as is the Father?
Third, having said that, does it make sense for there to be a wedding "in Heaven" during the "seven years of Tribulation" when the Groom said that He would not drink from the fruit of the vine until He could drink it new with them when He returned in God's Kingdom when it "shall come?" (Matt. 26:29; Mark 14:25; Luke 22:18) How can you have new fruit of the vine when you don't yet possess the planting?
Roy (aka Retrobyter)
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/3/2008 2:04:10 AM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
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quote:
chrisb743 said:
Well.. I've spent much time thinking about this.. I use to be a pre tribber.. I can honestly say though.. I just dont know.. Either way.. pre, mid, post... Dont have a clue... I just have to have faith that whatever comes.. My Lord will deliver me.. It may get ugly. But my Lord will take care of me. I think you can argue this subject for days and never get two sides to agree. Either way you believe it still comes down to faith... The word also says that God is not the author of confusion. If you read this thread it looks very confusing.. A lot of smart people.. A lot of well read people.. The truth... Jesus will come in his way, and in his time.
Yeah, I used to believe in the pre-trib position, too. I have to say that as I have studied and read more, my opinion on this issue has changed to a pre-wrath (somewhere towards the end of the GREAT TRIBULATION but before the Day of the Lord). Regardless, the sheep know the Shepherd's voice. Also, just remember do not bow down to that first guy on a white horse. The Messiah rides a white horse with this message on His thigh: "King of kings and Lord of lords." 
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/3/2008 8:23:48 PM
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D.A.S.
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I can't find any support for futurism. If futurism is false than post-tribulationism is true.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/6/2008 5:47:02 PM
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navyblueret
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Arley (aka navyblueret).
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
I voted 'Pre-Trib,' as IMO, the Bible supports that with little things like:
That which restrains must be removed (the HS), since the Holly Spirit lives within us, then we must also be removed.
Of the seventy 'Shavua' of Daniel, the first 69 are complete, and the last seven is the two sections of the Tribulation. The first 3.5 years being the period of delusion of the masses, allowing the AC to gain full power, and the second 3.5 being the period of full power, and persecution of Israel and Christians, unto the return of Messiah, in Power.
The wedding feast is normally seven days/(years), and I desire to be part of the whole feast, while Tribulation and Great Tribulation is being fulfilled, on mortal filled earth.
Once Messiah returns, to end the Great Tribulation, He immediately goes into the days of judgement, which starts the Millennial reign of Messiah.
The bride/Church, will not let the Bridegroom go back to work until after the Feast, thus = Pre-Trib rapture.
Just a thought.
In Messiah, His Shalom. Arley
LOL! Are we getting into the Christmas spirit early? "Holly Spirit?"
First, a clarification for you: "shavua`" means "seven" (singular and masculine). The plural is "shavu`iym."
Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact Greek, but I meant them as seventy single Shavua comprising the plural of seventy, if that makes any sense. The plural is over, and only the single remains undone.
I just have a couple of questions: First, I'm familiar with the concept that "he who letteth" refers to the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit). I was taught that myself, and I used to believe that. But, how is a Member of the Godhead, as Trinitarians say, "removed?!" Isn't it the teaching that God is "omnipresent" (always present) and "infinite?" How is that possible? And, if it's NOT possible, how is He the One to whom this verse refers as "he who letteth (or restrains)?"
As I understand, the Ruach Hakodesh's influence, must be removed, and since the Holy Spirit is only active in believers, and God would not yank himself from his living temples, we gotta go, with His influence. Those, 'Left Behind,' reestablishing the faith, on earth, will have Ruach HaKodesh, in themselves, but will not be organized for a time, thus allowing AC to come to power, beyond 'recall.' (one reason for 'Rapture')
Second, how is the Church (as you have it written) the "Bride" when Isra'el is called the "Wife?" Is God a polygamist? And, if you (as I have heard from others) say that the Church is the "Bride of Christ," well, don't Trinitarians (people who believe in the Trinity) believe that Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) is just as much God as is the Father?
I'm sorry, I gave up trying to figure out if I am 'trinitarian,' or any other type of 'arian' (bad joke), I only know what my study indicates to me. I am the adopted (grafted in) son of God, and part of the 'Bride' of His 'only begotten Son,' Yaushuah, Yeshuah, Y'shuah, Yesus, Jesus, (what-ever the pronunciation), as 'Joint heir' and Bride (but not the carnal type). I cannot explain what I do not have words to describe, sorta like describing Heaven, through my faith, and only my faith in God 'as' the Father, God 'as' the Son, and God 'as' the Holy Spirit.
Don't worry, I have been called an 'Hairy-tick' a number of times already. Wonderfully, that which I have erred on, will be lovingly corrected, upon my graduation to God, and my cleansing unto perfection.
Third, having said that, does it make sense for there to be a wedding "in Heaven" during the "seven years of Tribulation" when the Groom said that He would not drink from the fruit of the vine until He could drink it new with them when He returned in God's Kingdom when it "shall come?" (Matt. 26:29; Mark 14:25; Luke 22:18) How can you have new fruit of the vine when you don't yet possess the planting?
Yes, my friend, it sure makes sense to me that there be a wedding 'in Heaven' during the 'seven years of Tribulation.' The Groom, however stated in your referenced verses, per KJV, that: Matt, '...in my Fathers kingdom...;' Mark, '...the Kingdom of God...;' and Luk, '...until the kingdom of God shall come...'
Perhaps I misunderstand, but if there is 7 years of 'Trib' time, 7 days of 'wedding feast,' coupled with the need for the believing Church to be removed (so we will not squawk when we see an AC 'coming into power,' and further coupled with the fact that the 'Church' is not mentioned any more after Seal-6, OK, just call me wrong, but I am stuck with what I believe, until God washes away my 'Hairy-tickishness' from my soul.
Roy (aka Retrobyter)
Please forgive my awkward answers, above, but I have a problem with becoming a bit giddy in the brain, when I speak on God's Love, and my association with my Messiah.
In Messiah, I revel, in His Shalom, and His pleasure. I willingly share them with you, and all. Arley 
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In the name of Messiah, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/6/2008 5:53:29 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 95
Joined: 11/29/2008
Status: offline
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Hey Retro, Oh-by-the-way: Yep, I have been in the 'Christ-Mass' mood ever since I gave Him my eternity and self. The second thing I did, was give Him back 'Choice,' mine, as I had just made the most important use of that gift I could ever make, giving myself to Him, so I don't have any spiritual need for 'Choice,' anymore.
This is my short way of saying: Y E S, Praise God.
In His Shalom, and Protection, how can I be else-minded? Arley
_____________________________
In the name of Messiah, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/7/2008 5:38:14 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: D.A.S.
I can't find any support for futurism. If futurism is false than post-tribulationism is true.
Ironically, post-tribulationism is also a part of futurism. You may be confused about some terms. And there is ample support for futurism since we are still not in the Millenium.
Actually post-tribulationism has little or no support in Scripture. The Rapture must occur before the Tribulation, as I have pointed out on another thread.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/18/2008 12:48:39 PM
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Uriah
Posts: 46
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
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Ezra said, "Actually post-tribulationism has little or no support in Scripture."
I totally disagree, the very opposite it true. The Pre trib version requires multiple raptures, resurrections and returns of Jesus.
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Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/20/2008 1:02:23 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
Ezra said, "Actually post-tribulationism has little or no support in Scripture."
I totally disagree, the very opposite it true. The Pre trib version requires multiple raptures, resurrections and returns of Jesus.
If that is how God planned it, who are we to argue with His plan? The OT prophets spoke of both Christ's sufferings and His glory as though they happened at the same time, without knowing that the two would be separated by a gap of at least 2,000 years. The apostles spoke of the restoration of the kingdom of Israel without realizing that there would be a gap of at least 2,000 years between Christ's first coming and His second coming. Therefore there are at least two comings of Christ.
There is only one Rapture, there are only two resurrections (with the first resurrection in various phases), and there are only two returns of Christ -- firstly for His saints and then with His saints. His saints cannot return to the earth with Him unless they have first been raptured to Him. This is so elementary it does not need to be argued.
The real issues are (1) what is the tribulation? and (2) why does it come upon this earth? And Scripture is very clear. The tribulation is a period of great trouble and suffering in order to judge sin and sinners, not the Church. Therefore post-tribulationism has no basis is Scripture.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 12/20/2008 12:17:19 PM
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Uriah
Posts: 46
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
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"At least two comings.." You'll need to provide s verse of scripture for this to be a true statement!
Some easy math:
1 rapture BEFORE the tribulation as you believe.
1 resurrection at the same time
Do the "tribulation saints" who die (dead in Christ) get a resurrection? If so ADD 1 more
Do those alive at the end get raptured? If so ADD 1 more
If these promises don't apply to the "trib saints" as they do for us, it is another gospel. If they do, your math isn't working and it is still another gospel.
In Hebrews it says He will appear a SECOND time, not third or anything else!
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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