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[Poll]
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War in Iraq
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| We are in Iraq because of oil |
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| We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate |
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| We are in Iraq to protect Israel |
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| We are in Iraq to stop terrorists |
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| We are in Iraq for some other reason |
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Total Votes : 444
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(last vote on : 1/9/2009 7:29:03 AM)
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/28/2008 6:06:52 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
So we shouldn't be going after bin Laden in Pakistan if we find out where he is there? After all, it might upset the apple cart. 
Not if the apple cart has nukes.
The also have the ISI (Pakistani intelligence service) which has trained and funded a lot of terrorists around the globe.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/28/2008 9:43:01 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
So we shouldn't be going after bin Laden in Pakistan if we find out where he is there? After all, it might upset the apple cart.
Not if the apple cart has nukes.
Which with the way Iran is going may mean the whole region.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/28/2008 10:45:57 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
Joined: 10/1/2007
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The right always thinks that foreign nations are just a monolithic whole and that the government is kept in place by the will of a monolithic people. The people of Iran are chafing under Ahmanutjob and they are tired of being a pariah to the world. They want a democratic revolution from within but the hardliners are loathe to give up power peacefully.
We need diplomacy not endless bluster to bring about change.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/29/2008 8:24:10 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
The right always thinks that foreign nations are just a monolithic whole and that the government is kept in place by the will of a monolithic people. The people of Iran are chafing under Ahmanutjob and they are tired of being a pariah to the world. They want a democratic revolution from within but the hardliners are loathe to give up power peacefully.
We need diplomacy not endless bluster to bring about change.
But yet when this country tries to help bring about that movement to instill change, whether overt or covert, it is rejected. Look at the reaction to a semi-covert operation that took out the al Qaeda folks in Syria that preceded this discussion.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/29/2008 11:13:32 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3951
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
The right always thinks that foreign nations are just a monolithic whole and that the government is kept in place by the will of a monolithic people. The people of Iran are chafing under Ahmanutjob and they are tired of being a pariah to the world. They want a democratic revolution from within but the hardliners are loathe to give up power peacefully.
We need diplomacy not endless bluster to bring about change.
But yet when this country tries to help bring about that movement to instill change, whether overt or covert, it is rejected. Look at the reaction to a semi-covert operation that took out the al Qaeda folks in Syria that preceded this discussion.
The trouble is the difficulty looking at the consequences of these types of interventions. The US facilitated the Shah taking over Iran. His brutal rule set up the people being willing to support a theocracy that has existed for three decades. And we subsequently buddied up with Saddam Hussein when he went to war with Iran..... and then ... you know the rest.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/29/2008 12:10:29 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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So because of mistakes of the past we should have a total hands off policy toward a burgeoning move toward democracy in Iran or anywhere else?
Too bad everyone can't be a Monday morning quarterback.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/29/2008 4:49:46 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
Joined: 10/1/2007
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The trouble is when we forment the violent overthrow of an "unfriendly" government. This doesn't guarantee stability or longevity. The history of the CIA is full of these failures. Outsiders influencing a country's internal politics are not looked upon favorably.
Imagine what the backlash would be just to some other country trying to influence an election here; even if it is only through campaign donations!
I don't think it's being a Monday morning QB. It's just thinking about the negative consequences of such a move before committing to a course of action. If it's not a win-win situation for us and for them there is bound to be some resentment
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/29/2008 5:20:04 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2351
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
So because of mistakes of the past we should have a total hands off policy toward a burgeoning move toward democracy in Iran or anywhere else?
Too bad everyone can't be a Monday morning quarterback.
The softening up that Iran was showing in the early parts of the decade when they helped us in Afghanistan and got thoroughly condemned for being an axis-of-evil nation?
The problem with your statement though is there was absolutely no move towards democracy in Afghanistan or Iraq. Don't need to be a MMQB to have seen that.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/29/2008 10:37:13 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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The incursion into Syria to put down the al Qeada leaders was not to foment an unfriendly overthrow of Syria's government. And what is going on now in Iran, even as you have stated mapachito, is a movement toward a democratic revolution. We should ignore that and offer no help in any way to the students (for the most part) who desire that change?
As for backlash to outside influences on our election, there doesn't seem to be much backlash to what appears to be foreign donations to Obama that cannot be traced, or the cold calls from Palestinians in Gaza. But that subject is for another folder.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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Fascist Commie Libs in Iraq demand withdrawal date - 10/30/2008 4:23:07 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2351
Joined: 4/14/2005
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Title says it all.
quote:
BAGHDAD – Iraq wants to eliminate any chance U.S. forces will stay here after 2011 under a proposed security pact and to expand Iraqi legal jurisdiction over U.S. troops until then, a close ally of the prime minister said Thursday.
Those demands, which were presented to U.S. officials this week, could derail the deal — delivering a diplomatic blow to Washington in the final weeks of the Bush administration.
Failure to reach an agreement before year's end could force a suspension of American military operations, and U.S. commanders have been warning Iraqi officials that could endanger security improvements.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq_255
Sounds like we've done such a good job they don't want us to stay much longer.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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It's all but official: the United States has been defea... - 10/30/2008 7:51:26 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1511
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Title says it all.
quote:
BAGHDAD – Iraq wants to eliminate any chance U.S. forces will stay here after 2011 under a proposed security pact and to expand Iraqi legal jurisdiction over U.S. troops until then, a close ally of the prime minister said Thursday.
Those demands, which were presented to U.S. officials this week, could derail the deal — delivering a diplomatic blow to Washington in the final weeks of the Bush administration.
Failure to reach an agreement before year's end could force a suspension of American military operations, and U.S. commanders have been warning Iraqi officials that could endanger security improvements.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq_255
Sounds like we've done such a good job they don't want us to stay much longer.
And in resounding defeat ends George W. Bush's and the neocons' war of aggression and conquest.
No WMDs.
No partnership of any kind to Al-Qaeda.
Democracy?
Freedom?
What about 4 million refugees, 600,000 to 1 million dead Iraqis, dozens of billions of US dollars spent, thousands of US soldiers killed, maimed, wounded, injured? What about the surge of Iran as the paramount power in the region sans Israel? What about the first time an Arab state has seen Shiites take over, to the chagrin of our moderate Sunni Arab allies?
What about the horrible state of electricity, water, education, and public security? Take water -
see what the Red Cross says.
So what do we get out of this war? And what do the Iraqis get?
And now they want us out no later than 2011.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: It's all but official: the United States has been d... - 10/30/2008 8:55:53 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2351
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
So what do we get out of this war?
All of those lives lost, money spent and time invested in Iraq, Afghanistan, TSA, DHS, investments in intelligence, investments in the armed forces and people are pretty much guaranteeing that we'll be hit again next year if Obama wins. That's something huh? What a thoroughly epic failure this administration has been. What in the world we have been doing for the last 7 years I now have absolutely no clue.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: It's all but official: the United States has been d... - 10/30/2008 11:08:22 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1511
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
So what do we get out of this war?
All of those lives lost, money spent and time invested in Iraq, Afghanistan, TSA, DHS, investments in intelligence, investments in the armed forces and people are pretty much guaranteeing that we'll be hit again next year if Obama wins. That's something huh? What a thoroughly epic failure this administration has been. What in the world we have been doing for the last 7 years I now have absolutely no clue.
The folks who are almost betting terrorists will strike us within 1 year of Obama taking the presidency should he win on November 4th are the same folks who defend George W. Bush for having "kept America safe from more attacks" since 9/11/2001. But why don't they hold him accountable for FAILING on 9/11/2001???????
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 10/31/2008 1:30:25 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3951
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
So because of mistakes of the past we should have a total hands off policy toward a burgeoning move toward democracy in Iran or anywhere else?
Too bad everyone can't be a Monday morning quarterback.
Well, it would be refreshing to learn from these mistakes and learn the lessons of history.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/7/2008 11:43:55 AM
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stormin53
Posts: 29
Joined: 10/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
All of those lives lost, money spent and time invested in Iraq, Afghanistan, TSA, DHS, investments in intelligence, investments in the armed forces and people are pretty much guaranteeing that we'll be hit again next year if Obama wins. That's something huh? What a thoroughly epic failure this administration has been. What in the world we have been doing for the last 7 years I now have absolutely no clue.
I agree with Roger what a waste. Lets disband all this wasteful investments and expenses. Then we as Christians can sit around a campfire singing Kumbaya! with extremists.
WhooRAHH!
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/14/2008 2:31:30 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
Status: offline
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I think the saddening part of the whole thing is that, there is no real Iraq. Iraq is just a bunch of lines in the sand that westerners made in 1919. No one in that country views themselves as Iraqis.
So whenever Bush says: "The war in Iraq is going well," I ask: "For who?"
All we do by being over there (which we have been since the 1950's), is motivate those who have a problem with us and mobilize them to fight against us. It's a sad cycle, really
_____________________________
http://www.ichibanblog.net
Come and discover Japan's spirituality, with me!
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It's almost over - 11/16/2008 8:55:21 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2351
Joined: 4/14/2005
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The full Iraqi government will vote possibly today to extend the US mission. After 3 years though we are to be out of the country no if, and, buts or exceptions:
quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The Iraqi Cabinet on Sunday approved a security pact that would set the terms for U.S. troops in Iraq.
The agreement sets June 30, 2009, as the deadline for U.S. troops to withdraw from all Iraqi cities and towns, Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said.
The date for all troops to leave Iraq will be December 31, 2011, he said.
These dates are "set and fixed" and are "not subject to the circumstances on the ground," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/11/16/security.pact.vote/index.html
For those who don't like the Cool-Aid News Network here is Fox Republican News:
quote:
BAGHDAD — Iraq's Cabinet on Sunday approved a security pact with the United States that will allow American forces to stay in Iraq for three years after their U.N. mandate expires at the end of the year, the government said.
Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said all but one of the 28 Cabinet ministers present in Sunday's meeting, in addition to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, voted in favor of the pact by a show of hands.
The Cabinet has 37 members and it was not immediately clear why some ministers stayed away. Several of them were believed to be traveling abroad.
The agreement will be presented to the Iraqi parliament in a special session Monday.
The parliament will hear a first reading of the agreement, then committees will discuss the content in detail before a second reading is scheduled and a vote is taken. The agreement does not become law until the parliament approves it.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,452765,00.html
Can't blame Obama for this one anymore.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/24/2008 11:33:59 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2351
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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I guess when you're buddy buddy with Dick Cheney your company can kill American Soldiers in war theatres with impunity.
quote:
The Pentagon findings on Houston, Texas-based KBR stem from the widely publicized death of Sgt. Ryan Maseth, a highly decorated 24-year-old Green Beret from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Maseth was electrocuted while taking a shower at his base in Baghdad.
His January 2 death was just one of many deaths now believed to be linked to shoddy electrical work done at U.S. bases, managed by U.S. contractors, according to Pentagon sources.
The Pentagon's Defense Contract Management Agency recently gave KBR a "Level III Corrective Action Request" -- issued only when a contractor is found in "serious noncompliance" and just one step below the possibility of suspending or terminating a contract, Pentagon officials said
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/24/soldiers.electrocuted/index.html
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/25/2008 9:59:14 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
I guess when you're buddy buddy with Dick Cheney your company can kill American Soldiers in war theatres with impunity. It has much less to do with Cheney than it does with the way the Pentagon is run. Shoddy government bureaucracies were in place long before Deadeye Dick was elected.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/25/2008 10:11:51 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3951
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
I guess when you're buddy buddy with Dick Cheney your company can kill American Soldiers in war theatres with impunity. It has much less to do with Cheney than it does with the way the Pentagon is run. Shoddy government bureaucracies were in place long before Deadeye Dick was elected.
Wrongo. These companies, esp. KBR, et al were given cart blanche with no real oversight. it wasn't until people started dying due to shoddy electrical work, etc. that questions were asked. I have some friends that have worked for these companies and they say these reports are consistent with the "business practices" they have seen. One quit a Green Zone job as a result.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/25/2008 10:18:44 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
These companies, esp. KBR, et al were given cart blanche with no real oversight. And where does that blame fall? Perhaps with the Pentagon's Defense Contract Management Agency? A government bureaucracy if I ever saw one in a name.
We all know how well the government oversees plans and programs. Just as with the bailout money, there's NO oversight on where that's going, is there? Why should the Pentagon be any different?
Give me a break and put the blame where it really belongs rather than put up false targets in the form of the Vice President.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/25/2008 10:34:17 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3951
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
These companies, esp. KBR, et al were given cart blanche with no real oversight. And where does that blame fall? Perhaps with the Pentagon's Defense Contract Management Agency? A government bureaucracy if I ever saw one in a name.
We all know how well the government oversees plans and programs. Just as with the bailout money, there's NO oversight on where that's going, is there? Why should the Pentagon be any different?
Give me a break and put the blame where it really belongs rather than put up false targets in the form of the Vice President.
In 2003, what the VP wanted, the VP got. The Pentagon is not likely to ruffle the feathers of the most powerful man in the federal government.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign - 11/25/2008 11:05:57 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
In 2003, what the VP wanted, the VP got. The Pentagon is not likely to ruffle the feathers of the most powerful man in the federal government. Especially not when it makes it so much easier to sit on their duffs in an office and do what they do best. Nothing.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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