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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 2:26:45 PM
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Eutychus
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Abby, since I am only a member of one church, the "storehouse that feeds" me is the one where I feel like I should give all my tithes. It's the place where I worship, minister with, fellowship, and share with its members.
Ministry (serving) is a two-way street, we aren't just fed but also should be feeding where we serve. Or as Paul wrote, we are to "encourage one another and build up one another."
How are you fed and have meaningful fellowship with more than one church?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:30:00 PM
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rolling
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Where in the bible, O.T. or N.T., is today's tithing system found? thanks. devon and kathy
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 9:40:15 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Where in the bible, O.T. or N.T., is today's tithing system found? thanks. devon and kathy
There is no instructions to Christians about tithing (10%), but concerning giving to the Church;
(2Co 9:5) Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brothers that they would go forward to you, and make up beforehand your blessing, it having been promised that this would be ready, thus as a matter of blessing, and not as of covetousness.
(2Co 9:6) But I say this, He who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully.
(2Co 9:7) Each one, as he purposes in his heart, let him give; not of grief, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.
(2Co 9:8) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that in everything, always having all self-sufficiency, you may abound to every good work;
I think verse 7 above really says it all about what we are "Supposed" to give. We are to give as we determine in our heart and not of necessity (required or supposed, to give).
This has been my teaching for over 45 years and it seems to be the right way to do it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 11:48:37 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Abby, since I am only a member of one church, the "storehouse that feeds" me is the one where I feel like I should give all my tithes. It's the place where I worship, minister with, fellowship, and share with its members.
Ministry (serving) is a two-way street, we aren't just fed but also should be feeding where we serve. Or as Paul wrote, we are to "encourage one another and build up one another."
How are you fed and have meaningful fellowship with more than one church?
And are you saying that its impossible?
No, I was just asking how you do it.
Thanks
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 11:54:33 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Where in the bible, O.T. or N.T., is today's tithing system found? thanks. devon and kathy
There is no instructions to Christians about tithing (10%), but concerning giving to the Church;
(2Co 9:5) Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brothers that they would go forward to you, and make up beforehand your blessing, it having been promised that this would be ready, thus as a matter of blessing, and not as of covetousness.
(2Co 9:6) But I say this, He who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully.
(2Co 9:7) Each one, as he purposes in his heart, let him give; not of grief, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.
(2Co 9:8) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that in everything, always having all self-sufficiency, you may abound to every good work;
I think verse 7 above really says it all about what we are "Supposed" to give. We are to give as we determine in our heart and not of necessity (required or supposed, to give).
This has been my teaching for over 45 years and it seems to be the right way to do it.
Thanks
RC
Hi RC. Taken in context, isn't that passage about a previously made promise made by one local church to give aid to another distant church (sort of Foreign Missions)? He wasn't telling them to wait until they get a message about a gift but to give what they already purposed at an earlier time in a generous and joyful manner? And, as such, is not about normal, local giving?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 12:49:36 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Hi RC. Taken in context, isn't that passage about a previously made promise made by one local church to give aid to another distant church (sort of Foreign Missions)? He wasn't telling them to wait until they get a message about a gift but to give what they already purposed at an earlier time in a generous and joyful manner? And, as such, is not about normal, local giving?
Some might consider it as such.
As for me, if I or any of mine can;
(2Co 9:7) Each one, as he purposes in his heart, let him give; not of grief, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.
And God loves us for being a cheerful giver, purposes in our heart, and not under grief or necessity; I am all for it.
Do you have a place in the New Textament that calls for a Tithe from Christians?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 3:20:16 PM
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Eutychus
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RC, I know of only two times tithe is mentioned in the NT; the first (in Matthew 23 & Luke 11) was when the Lord commended tithing but also said justice and mercy and faithfulness should be practiced with it. They seemed to all carry equal weight with Him.
I can't find anywhere in the NT where tithing and justice and mercy and faithfulness were done away with after the Lord's words on the matter.
The other time is in Hebrew 7 where we are reminded that it was practiced prior to the Law, which seems to indicate that the Lord may have meant that tithing and justice and mercy and faithfulness transcend the Law.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 7:18:27 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
RC, I know of only two times tithe is mentioned in the NT; the first (in Matthew 23 & Luke 11) was when the Lord commended tithing but also said justice and mercy and faithfulness should be practiced with it. They seemed to all carry equal weight with Him.
I can't find anywhere in the NT where tithing and justice and mercy and faithfulness were done away with after the Lord's words on the matter.
The other time is in Hebrew 7 where we are reminded that it was practiced prior to the Law, which seems to indicate that the Lord may have meant that tithing and justice and mercy and faithfulness transcend the Law.
And as far as i know you found them all.
My problem with Chruches (Pastors) demanding a thithe (10%) is that it was Old Testament law, and I do not see how we should be held to that one, and not the others; such as making the wife sit out in the lawn mower shed during her monthly. And it flys in the Face of;
(2Co 9:7) Each one, as he purposes in his heart, let him give; not of grief, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.
I have to attend many Pastor conferences as part of my duties with the Denomination (I call them Reverand Reverand meetings). Folks are always complaing about short falls in the offerings and teaching harder and harder on tithes.
I stopped that during my first year as a Minister, and we have yet to have a short fall. Teach the people to hear from God, let that determine in thier heart what to give; and it is just exactly enough.
But of course that is just my ole country boy opinion.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 1:24:50 AM
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SamsonUSA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
RC, I know of only two times tithe is mentioned in the NT; the first (in Matthew 23 & Luke 11) was when the Lord commended tithing but also said justice and mercy and faithfulness should be practiced with it. They seemed to all carry equal weight with Him.
I can't find anywhere in the NT where tithing and justice and mercy and faithfulness were done away with after the Lord's words on the matter.
The other time is in Hebrew 7 where we are reminded that it was practiced prior to the Law, which seems to indicate that the Lord may have meant that tithing and justice and mercy and faithfulness transcend the Law.
And as far as i know you found them all.
My problem with Chruches (Pastors) demanding a thithe (10%) is that it was Old Testament law, and I do not see how we should be held to that one, and not the others; such as making the wife sit out in the lawn mower shed during her monthly. And it flys in the Face of;
(2Co 9:7) Each one, as he purposes in his heart, let him give; not of grief, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.
I have to attend many Pastor conferences as part of my duties with the Denomination (I call them Reverand Reverand meetings). Folks are always complaing about short falls in the offerings and teaching harder and harder on tithes.
I stopped that during my first year as a Minister, and we have yet to have a short fall. Teach the people to hear from God, let that determine in thier heart what to give; and it is just exactly enough.
But of course that is just my ole country boy opinion.
Thanks
RC
Yes, but a Spirit filled ole country boys opinion! I agree 100%.
_____________________________
Knowledge humbles great men, astonishes the common man, and puffs up the little man
Chubby babies rock!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 7:16:26 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I have to attend many Pastor conferences as part of my duties with the Denomination (I call them Reverand Reverand meetings). Folks are always complaing about short falls in the offerings and teaching harder and harder on tithes.
I stopped that during my first year as a Minister, and we have yet to have a short fall. Teach the people to hear from God, let that determine in thier heart what to give; and it is just exactly enough.
But of course that is just my ole country boy opinion.
Thanks
RC
I think you got it right.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 9:40:48 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
My problem with Chruches (Pastors) demanding a thithe (10%) is that it was Old Testament law...
But Abraham was not under OT law. His giving a tithe to God's priest was centuries before Moses was born.
I admire your stance on not preaching on tithing. I know in my own case that my decision to return at least a tenth of my gross income for Kingdom work came through personal study, not a sermon or organized study at church. In fact, my intended purpose for beginning my personal study was to find support against a tithe. (I didn't find any, unless the absence of continued instructions meant I could ignore it.)
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 10:50:32 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Abby, since I am only a member of one church, the "storehouse that feeds" me is the one where I feel like I should give all my tithes. It's the place where I worship, minister with, fellowship, and share with its members.
There is no biblical evidence that the term "storehouse" in the OT means the local church. Instead it means literally the "storehouse" where food and other supplies were housed. Nothing more.
Just like the term "floodgates" does not mean physical blessings, rather actual rain from the sky.
quote:
RC, I know of only two times tithe is mentioned in the NT; the first (in Matthew 23 & Luke 11) was when the Lord commended tithing but also said justice and mercy and faithfulness should be practiced with it. They seemed to all carry equal weight with Him.
Both of those times that tithing was mentioned in the NT, Jesus was still ALIVE, so they were still under the Mosaic law.
Once Jesus died, rose again, and ascended to Heaven, fulfilling the new covenant, Scripture is very clear on how NT believers should give. RC pointed it out so well.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 12:19:28 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
There is no biblical evidence that the term "storehouse" in the OT means the local church. Instead it means literally the "storehouse" where food and other supplies were housed. Nothing more.
Remarkably, many believers understand the term "storehouse" would equate to the local church today, especially since God coupled the bringing of the tithe with "mine house". It's very common among believers to call the local church, the Lord's House.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 12:21:53 PM
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rolling
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It's clear that Abram's tithe was a 'spoils of war' tax that many heathen nations utilized. This was not a command from God. It was on the spoils of war, not on Abram's own substance. Nor does it resemble the Mosaich law of tithing to the Israelites once they were in their own land.
Now here is a beautiful picture of how the 'church' is to operate. Willingly and freely are the 2 pillars of giving.
Exodus 35:20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved him came and brought an offering to the LORD for the work on the Tent of Meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments. All who were willing, men and women alike, came and brought gold jewelry of all kinds: brooches, earrings, rings and ornaments. They all presented their gold as a wave offering to the LORD. Everyone who had blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen, or goat hair, ram skins dyed red or hides of sea cows brought them. Those presenting an offering of silver or bronze brought it as an offering to the LORD, and everyone who had acacia wood for any part of the work brought it. Every skilled woman spun with her hands and brought what she had spun—blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen. And all the women who were willing and had the skill spun the goat hair. The leaders brought onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece. They also brought spices and olive oil for the light and for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense. All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.
Then Moses said to the Israelites, “See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic craftsmanship. And he has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach others. He has filled them with skill to do all kinds of work as craftsmen, designers, embroiderers in blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen, and weavers—all of them master craftsmen and designers
The word willing used 4 times here. Not constrained or commanded.
Now all the plush structuring of the 'tent' is symbolic of the 'church' bought by His blood. The spiritual fruit, giftings, functions in the saints is what God delights in . We are the tabernacle, the temple, the bride adorned with spiritual jewlery and laden with spiritual fruit, at least we should be and could be if we'd stop all the fussing over buildings lavishly decorated. I do not believe Christ is impressed with our temple building nor is he happy about unfounded laws for bilking the poor and widows to finance them. devon and kathy
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 12:25:04 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
...RC pointed it out so well.
Yes, RC pointed how one should live up to his previously promised gifts for foreign missions.
However, if one wants to make that a "principle" to apply to all giving, then I should be allowed to make the pre-Law practice of tithing a "principle" that I may apply to my local storehouse, or God's "mine house."
Again, Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law when he tithed unto the Lord. Moses wouldn't be born for several hundred more years.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 12:29:30 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
It's clear that Abram's tithe was a 'spoils of war' tax that many heathen nations utilized. This was not a command from God. It was on the spoils of war, not on Abram's own substance. Nor does it resemble the Mosaich law of tithing to the Israelites once they were in their own land.
This has been argued to death before in this thread.
You make it sound like Abram wanted to take the goods that belonged to another just to enrich himself.
That is not at all the case.
He was recovering stolen goods and people. Goods that belonged to his nephew.
He honored God with a tenth for helping him successfully recover them.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 12:35:10 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
The word willing used 4 times here...
I'm on board. I willingly and joyfully worship God with at least 10% of all that He gives me.
Tithing is not a burden to me, never has been. It is just one way to remember that everthing, 100% of all I've been entrusted with, belongs to Him. I don't give it to get more or to "pay" a debt imposed by anyone - it is a very personal form of worship and praise to God.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 1:27:30 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
The word willing used 4 times here...
I'm on board. I willingly and joyfully worship God with at least 10% of all that He gives me.
Tithing is not a burden to me, never has been. It is just one way to remember that everthing, 100% of all I've been entrusted with, belongs to Him. I don't give it to get more or to "pay" a debt imposed by anyone - it is a very personal form of worship and praise to God.
i would LOVE to give all my money to God's work, if i did not have all these bills to pay i could do that. your atittude is one i will have when i get my debt down... with God's help.
i dont mean to get into your personal business, but when you give to God, after you pay your bills, after you buy food and gas, then how much of your earnings are left. If you have a lot of money left over after those items, its easy to say what you did... but if you dont have much money and you have to scrimp all week, is that just as easy for you?
i'd like to know if anyone has joy paying thier tithes when they have to scrimp all week and barely have enough to pay your bills.. (((now remember, if you miss a payment you will incur lots of financial hardship)))
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 1:30:37 PM
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rolling
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Eutychus: hello. Where did todays tithing system come from?
Also: Tithing may not be a burden for you. What is your income? You may be making a lot more than others.
A widow may have an income of 800.00 a month, like my mother. I'll cut to the chase. If she gave 10% to the church, she would have to leave the rest home she is in and live on the street...literally. Are you getting the point here?
A guy that makes 20 thou. a month, pays his 2 thou. of tithes and has to survive on a paltry 15 thou. a month.
Another guy makes 2 thou. a month and pays his 200.00 a month in tithes and is forced to live on 1500.00 amonth.
Can you honestly call this a fair system? This system cannot be found anywhere in the Bible, O.T. or N.T..
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 2:16:38 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Can you honestly call this a fair system?
A flat 10% would be the most fair system. Do you think it would be more fair to have someone making less than $1000 a month not tithe at all and then someone who makes $10000 a month tithe 50%?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 2:22:24 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
i dont mean to get into your personal business, but when you give to God, after you pay your bills, after you buy food and gas, then how much of your earnings are left. If you have a lot of money left over after those items, its easy to say what you did... but if you dont have much money and you have to scrimp all week, is that just as easy for you?
When I committed to tithe, I had a wie & two small kids, a small salary (my wife didn't work outside the home), and we the usual debts. Beginning then, the first thing I do is make out a check for my tithe and offering - that's 10% of my gross.
There were times I didn't have much left after paying bills, but I've never been big on material possessions and I've always lived within my means. That meant that I sometimes lived in very cheap housing, bought a 5-year car, and had off-brand clothes and furnishings. As a result, I've never missed a payment on any bill.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 2:23:31 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Can you honestly call this a fair system?
A flat 10% would be the most fair system. Do you think it would be more fair to have someone making less than $1000 a month not tithe at all and then someone who makes $10000 a month tithe 50%?
Exactly!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 2:27:53 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Also: Tithing may not be a burden for you. What is your income? You may be making a lot more than others.
My income is none of your business.
But I will tell you that I was below the government poverty level for a family of 4 when I was first convinced that tithing was the minimum God wanted from me in gratitude for the rest.
And in 2006, my salary dropped $20,000 when I was laid off from one job and took another. You try doing that at any salary. And, yet, I have continued tithing - and meeting all my bills.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2008 2:41:26 PM
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rolling
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quote:
A flat 10% would be the most fair system. Do you think it would be more fair to have someone making less than $1000 a month not tithe at all and then someone who makes $10000 a month tithe 50%?
Absolutely. And the N.T. form of giving is exactly that.
I believe the modern tithe burdens the poor and the widow and lets off easy the well to do.
My original question: where did this modern system come from?
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