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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 10:54:40 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1708
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
If I see Him as the most wonderful treasure, then I treasure Him.
One still makes a choice. You keep missing that part, even though you deny that you do.
Of course I deny that I "keep missing" that a person needs to make a choice. I just put the choice in the correct perspective.
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If I have to choose to treasure Him, my treasuring is not genuine and false.
Your opinions and definitions are not Biblically based. All commands create a choice: to either obey or not. A command does not cause an action, unless we speak of puppets or robots. But all the reformists have assured me that people are neither. 
So, when given a command, we either:
a. obey it
b. disobey it
These are choices.
To obey God is to love Him, be glad in Him, desire Him, treasure Him - all these involve the emotions. The state of a person’s heart determines how a person responds to that which must be chosen. The choice comes out of that which attracts a person's desires. A choice is affected by how a person views, understands, feels about, etc what he is confronted with.
A choice for Christ is not a mere cold intellectual process. Choosing always comes out of perception - how one views Christ.
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This really brings out the distinction between mere intellectual belief and belief based upon seeing Christ as beautiful. Mere intellectual belief lacks any heart felt emotion; it is cold for it is merely mental and lacks love. The prior includes love for Him, a treasuring of Him and a desire for Him - emotion.
Again, I think your opinions and definitions are not Biblically based. The Bible never speaks of "intellectual faith". That is a made up term by reformists to support their theology only. When the Bible speaks of faith and/or believing, it always means faith in Christ for salvation, unless the context is crystal clear that the object of faith is someone/else other than Christ.
If you have any examples of where the Bible makes clear the believing is "only intellectual" as you claim, where are they?
Paul prayed for the Ephesians believers that "the eyes of [their] heart would be enlightened . . . ." If what Paul wanted these believers to understand was only mental then there would be no need to pray.
Paul also states that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are only "spiritually discerned." If they could be discerned by man's intellect only he would have never stated that they can only be spiritually appraised.
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Let's put it this way, most people would not have to think twice about deciding between the two. It is the same when one sees the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. The choice between Him  or a continued life of sinful rebellion  is obvious and moot.
IF...they are paying attention and are interested.
Not being interested and therefore not paying attention shows a heart condition. It is a heart that values the creation over and above the Creator.
Bingo! My point as well. A "heart condition" of being unwilling or uninterested, in spite of the light of divine Truth that God reveals.
That's one of the points of Romans 1. God has revealed Himself, yet men either suppress that truth in denial (v.18) or they "knew God" (recognized His existence) but didn't honor Him or give thanks (v.21).
All natural men have wicked hearts; it is their nature. Therefore they are called the "children of wrath." Their nature determines how they will choose - that which dishonors God.
I (and your scholars) don't see the division between two types of sinners as you do, but one thing is clear, those who do not honor God or give thanks are sinners under the wrath of God.
When one is given light to see God's redemption in Christ the choice is moot. Those whom God has given to Christ will come to Him. When one sees they are a sinner under God's wrath, but in spite of this God has graciously given His son in order that he will not receive what he deserves, but quite the opposite, he receives freedom from sin, wrath and freedom to enjoy God forever - the choice is clear. Even clearer than the choice between drinking sewer water and a milk shake (for most anyway  ).
When one does not have light from God to see and therefore cannot discern, the choice is blurred at the best.
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This person does not have light to see the glory of Christ in the gospel.
I believe they have rejected that light. That's why they "don't have it". Not because God wouldn't give it to them.
I believe what you say is true up to a point, for all God calls he justifies (Rom 8:30).
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 11:08:43 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1708
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Those whom He calls believe and are justified.
Do you want to throw out Matt 22:14? That verse contradicts your statement here. Many are called, but few are chosen.
I don't have much time, but I had to respond to this.
It appears you throw out Romans 8:28-30 which in your mind contradicts Matthew 22:14.
It is clear, "All whom God calls He justifies," and "many are called, but few are chosen."
It comes down to how the term "called" is used in each of these verses. It is obvious that "called" in Rom 8:30 is a sovereign act of God. And those whom He calls he also justifies. So, the group that God calls is the group that He justifies.
This being the case, how should we look at "Many are called, but few are chosen?" Does this passage conflict with Romans 8:30? By no means does it contradict.
Many hear the hear the general call of the gospel, such as those who tried to stone Jesus, but only those who are chosen by God are those who are accepted (justified).
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:05:06 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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Why do you think that "through" and "should" are equivalent?
Chose that we should be saved “by means of” (“through”) sanctification by the Spirit and belief. Belief is the instrument. We’re led to it by the Spirit. That is the way. There is no other. God decrees it in every specific case.
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Yes, it is that divine promise to we believe God has promised.
Insert: our effort. Our faith, our exertion. But I remember you said salvation is 100% from God. What is this human addition you make? We just backed down to 99%.
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To what do you base this idea on, being "morally diametrical"?
God is holy. We are sinful.
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Your claim that both God and man cannot be free seems to be just an attack on God's sovereignty and omnipotence. He most certainly CAN be free and God, while allowing His creatures freedom.
Interesting that you choose to impact God in your retort. Why not take the freedom from man? What’s so sacred about human freedom?
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There is nothing in the freedom of man's thinking that has ANY adverse effect on Him. None.
So, you don’t believe in reconciliation?
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To even think so blasphemes His Name.
Disagreeing with you is hardly blasphemy. Careful. My fuse is getting short with this kind of talk.
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Me: It’s a choice, one based on humanistic preference the other based on revealed truth.
You: Absolutely correct. Man either believes what he thinks "makes sense" or he believes what God has revealed.
Case closed. FG is an admitted humanist.
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For purposes of this discussion, said "command" was given so that the recipient was aware of it.
But what if they’re not aware of the command? Are they not guilty? Ignorance of the law...?
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OK. Explain how "call" is different from "invited". Strong's gives both words as meanings of kletos.
You remember wa-a-ay back when I explained why lexicons have more than one definition? OK, let’s try again. The definitions are drawn from various word usages found in the Bible, through contexts, and from classical literature. They are not choices to fit your pov. Once again, when you have more than one definition, you have flexibility of meaning. The context determines which. Lexicons are not meant to be used as buffet-books for choosing your personal favorite meaning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:11:42 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
A choice for Christ is not a mere cold intellectual process. Choosing always comes out of perception - how one views Christ.
I never said it was a "mere cold intellectual process. Them's your words.
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If you have any examples of where the Bible makes clear the believing is "only intellectual" as you claim, where are they?
Paul prayed for the Ephesians believers that "the eyes of [their] heart would be enlightened . . . ." If what Paul wanted these believers to understand was only mental then there would be no need to pray.
wadr, I think this is quite a stretch. The "heart" is the "seat" of our being, and where we think and feel. In fact, Paul was praying that the Ephesian believers would understand his message.
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Paul also states that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are only "spiritually discerned." If they could be discerned by man's intellect only he would have never stated that they can only be spiritually appraised.
In context, the things of the Spirit refer to the deep things of God (v.10).
Heb 5:12-13 is a chastisement to believers for their failure to grow up. They were still "on milk" when they should have advanced to "solid food".
This principle is also seen in 1 Pet 2:2, where Peter notes, "like newborn babes, long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow in respect to salvation." We start on "milk" and advance to "solid food".
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All natural men have wicked hearts; it is their nature. Therefore they are called the "children of wrath." Their nature determines how they will choose - that which dishonors God.
There is nothing in the nature of man that prevents him from choosing what God reveals to him.
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I (and your scholars) don't see the division between two types of sinners as you do, but one thing is clear, those who do not honor God or give thanks are sinners under the wrath of God.
In fact, the entire human race is made up of sinners under the wrath of God. But that wrath isn't meted out until the end of time. In the meantime, anyone is free to believe or reject the gospel. When the gospel is believed, God's wrath is removed from the believer.
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When one is given light to see God's redemption in Christ the choice is moot.
To be "given light" is just another way of saying "to understand". Seems you want to spiritualize it. So, it isn't moot at all. And the many unbelievers who clearly understand the gospel yet don't believe it proves it.
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Even clearer than the choice between drinking sewer water and a milk shake (for most anyway ).
I've avoided this example because I think it is not relevant. What about if the sewer water is treated so that its appearance and odor have been eliminated and replaced by attractive colors and aromas. Then it's very possible that people may choose it. Here is the point: all the religions of the world are like sewer water that has been "treated" to appear attractive to people. Many people choose their religions/churches based on liturgy or formality, and etc, etc. they are still choosing sewer water; they just won't realize it until the end, when it is too late.
That's why your example isn't relevant, imho.
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When one does not have light from God to see and therefore cannot discern, the choice is blurred at the best.
If the gospel hasn't been revealed, there is nothing to choose.
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This person does not have light to see the glory of Christ in the gospel.
I believe they have rejected that light. That's why they "don't have it". Not because God wouldn't give it to them.
I believe what you say is true up to a point, for all God calls he justifies (Rom 8:30).
OK. At what point does your "faith" in what I say cease to exist?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:18:17 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
In fact, the entire human race is made up of sinners under the wrath of God. But that wrath isn't meted out until the end of time. In the meantime, anyone is free to believe or reject the gospel. When the gospel is believed, God's wrath is removed from the believer.
Your opinion. Not biblical. Justice is finalized at the end of time, but it is meted out whenever God pleases. That is toooooo easy to prove.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:20:38 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
Those whom He calls believe and are justified.
Do you want to throw out Matt 22:14? That verse contradicts your statement here. Many are called, but few are chosen.
I don't have much time, but I had to respond to this.
It appears you throw out Romans 8:28-30 which in your mind contradicts Matthew 22:14.
It is clear, "All whom God calls He justifies," and "many are called, but few are chosen."
It comes down to how the term "called" is used in each of these verses. It is obvious that "called" in Rom 8:30 is a sovereign act of God. And those whom He calls he also justifies. So, the group that God calls is the group that He justifies.
This being the case, how should we look at "Many are called, but few are chosen?" Does this passage conflict with Romans 8:30? By no means does it contradict.
Many hear the hear the general call of the gospel, such as those who tried to stone Jesus, but only those who are chosen by God are those who are accepted (justified)
Are you aware that the "called" in Matt 22:14 is a different word than "called" in Rom 8? Kletos vs kaleoo.
I see no reason not to understand "foreknew" in v.29 to be "knowing who would believe", which He then predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. In v.30 the word for "called" has the meaning of "to name, call by name, to give a name to". This is very consistent with the idea of God giving names to all believers who He adopted as His children (Eph 1).
So, you can insert "gave a name to" in Rom 8:30 in place of "called".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:21:13 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
I've avoided this example because I think it is not relevant. What about if the sewer water is treated so that its appearance and odor have been eliminated and replaced by attractive colors and aromas. Then it's very possible that people may choose it. Here is the point: all the religions of the world are like sewer water that has been "treated" to appear attractive to people. Many people choose their religions/churches based on liturgy or formality, and etc, etc. they are still choosing sewer water; they just won't realize it until the end, when it is too late.
That's why your example isn't relevant, imho.
Your response is irrelevant. Man is the sewer water.
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Are you aware that the "called" in Matt 22:14 is a different word than "called" in Rom 8? Kletos vs kaleoo.
Same root.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:37:45 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
Those whom He calls believe and are justified.
Do you want to throw out Matt 22:14? That verse contradicts your statement here. Many are called, but few are chosen.
I don't have much time, but I had to respond to this.
It appears you throw out Romans 8:28-30 which in your mind contradicts Matthew 22:14.
It is clear, "All whom God calls He justifies," and "many are called, but few are chosen."
It comes down to how the term "called" is used in each of these verses. It is obvious that "called" in Rom 8:30 is a sovereign act of God. And those whom He calls he also justifies. So, the group that God calls is the group that He justifies.
This being the case, how should we look at "Many are called, but few are chosen?" Does this passage conflict with Romans 8:30? By no means does it contradict.
Many hear the hear the general call of the gospel, such as those who tried to stone Jesus, but only those who are chosen by God are those who are accepted (justified)
Are you aware that the "called" in Matt 22:14 is a different word than "called" in Rom 8? Kletos vs kaleoo.
I see no reason not to understand "foreknew" in v.29 to be "knowing who would believe", which He then predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. In v.30 the word for "called" has the meaning of "to name, call by name, to give a name to". This is very consistent with the idea of God giving names to all believers who He adopted as His children (Eph 1).
So, you can insert "gave a name to" in Rom 8:30 in place of "called".
You still don't know what "know" means. It is an intimate knowledge such as Adam knew his wife Eve.
Not a knowledge in the head as you're supposing.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:55:23 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
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ORIGINAL: umcbee
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
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ORIGINAL: umcbee
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Man, it's hard to follow so many posts after being gone eating Mom's home-cooking.
Anyways, got back and had the following in my mailbox regarding where the origin of our faith comes from. I'll just post the verses.
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
This is a repost since it got overlooked. Let's not overlook scripture, please.
This is the only verse in all those you posted that even contained the word faith . It states where one's faith should rest ; it in no way says where faith comes from .
Neither do any of the other verses you quoted tell us where the origin of our faith comes from .
And don't tell that faith and believe mean the same thing , they are two different words in the Greek , with two different meanings .
I didn't overlook your post the first time : there was simply nothing in it concerning the origin of one's faith ; so there was really nothing to respond too .
Believe is the verb form of faith, but we have no verb form of faith in the English language. If we did, it would be "faithing" as my pastor so puts it.
"Believe" > Strongs #4100 , means to have faith , credit , to entrust
"Faith" > Strongs #4102 , means persuasion , credence , conviction
It only proves my point. Thanks.
Me thinks not .
"the devils also believe and tremble . (James 2:19)
"Believe" in this verse is Strongs #4100 so..........
If believe is just the verb form of faith as you say , and they both mean the same thing........where is it ever stated in Scripture that any devils have faith ?
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 1:56:43 PM
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HardKnox
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Psalm 49:12 “Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.”
What is eternal life? How is it that men who perish can be made to abide forever? The easy answer is “God”. Absolutely true, but does he reveal a manner, or method, or “means”, if you will by which he puts eternal life in men? Does God place within people something living and eternally abiding that makes men live forever? If so, how?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:01:27 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
If believe is just the verb form of faith as you say , and they both mean the same thing........where is it ever stated in Scripture that any devils have faith ?
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Belief is the result of faith. If one believes, they believe from their faith. If devils believe, they believe from devil's faith. If sinners believe, they believe from sinners faith. If believers believe, they believe savingly from Christ's faith and are justified. Thus ends the long semantical game.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:07:37 PM
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umcbee
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rwe ,
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Is not faith a spiritual gift, also for the believer? I think we all possess some degree
or another of all the Spirit and all the spiritual gifts, and faith is one of these.
I don't find any Scripture that supports faith as being a spiritual gift ; unless you would be meaning the mountain moving kind ; or a special gifting of some special faith for a special purpose .
Scripture also does not say that all believers have some degree of all the gifts of the Spirit . It does say that to one is given the gift of prophecy , to another of tongues , to another the interpretation of tongues , to one the gift of healing , to another the gift exortation , ect ect . But I find no evidence that all believers are given any degree of all the spiritual gifts .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:17:19 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
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If believe is just the verb form of faith as you say , and they both mean the same thing........where is it ever stated in Scripture that any devils have faith ?
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Belief is the result of faith. If one believes, they believe from their faith. If devils believe, they believe from devil's faith. If sinners believe, they believe from sinners faith. If believers believe, they believe savingly from Christ's faith and are justified. Thus ends the long semantical game.
Purely theological curveballs and a lot of colorful rhetoric : no Scripture supports that belief is the result of faith , nor any of the other examples you have provided .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:17:23 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Bee:
"the devils also believe and tremble . (James 2:19)
"Believe" in this verse is Strongs #4100 so..........
If believe is just the verb form of faith as you say , and they both mean the same thing........where is it ever stated in Scripture that any devils have faith ?
Bee makes good point.
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Rwe:
Lets just say whatever "denying the faith" means, it doesn't unsave us
We are in total agreement, my friend, on this.
What we definitely disagree on – you seem to suggest that Faith and mere belief is the same thing, so if a person lost belief that means he has automatically lost his faith.
I -strongly!- disagree. If a chisitian altzgheimer patient doesn’t believe anymore, if a Christian develops mental problems and claims there is no God, if a Christian claims that under the influence of some circumstances, he might have lost belief or intellectual abilities to believe, but not salvific faith.
Salvific faith is not the same thing as mere belief
If a person is born again he cant get "unborn" , but he can lose his belief.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:17:55 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
rwe ,
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Is not faith a spiritual gift, also for the believer? I think we all possess some degree
or another of all the Spirit and all the spiritual gifts, and faith is one of these.
I don't find any Scripture that supports faith as being a spiritual gift ; unless you would be meaning the mountain moving kind ; or a special gifting of some special faith for a special purpose .
Scripture also does not say that all believers have some degree of all the gifts of the Spirit . It does say that to one is given the gift of prophecy , to another of tongues , to another the interpretation of tongues , to one the gift of healing , to another the gift exortation , ect ect . But I find no evidence that all believers are given any degree of all the spiritual gifts .
Galatians 5:22 (KJV)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:21:37 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
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Why do you think that "through" and "should" are equivalent?
Chose that we should be saved “by means of” (“through”) sanctification by the Spirit and belief. Belief is the instrument. We’re led to it by the Spirit. That is the way. There is no other. God decrees it in every specific case.
I agree that everyone who believes has been led by the Spirit. But that doesn't legitimize your rendition of the verse to mean that God causes anyone to believe.
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Yes, it is that divine promise to we believe God has promised.
Insert: our effort. Our faith, our exertion.
Throw out: effort as relates to faith. There is no effort in faith. See Rom 4:4,5.
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But I remember you said salvation is 100% from God. What is this human addition you make?
None. I have repeatedly said that no one can make an "addition" to salvation. The package comes fully complete as a gift from God.
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To what do you base this idea on, being "morally diametrical"?
God is holy. We are sinful.
Sure. But how does that mean that both God and man cannot be free? You haven't explained that.
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Your claim that both God and man cannot be free seems to be just an attack on God's sovereignty and omnipotence. He most certainly CAN be free and God, while allowing His creatures freedom.
Interesting that you choose to impact God in your retort. Why not take the freedom from man? What’s so sacred about human freedom?
Who said I have taken "freedom from God", as you insinuate here? God, who is completely free as sovereign omnipotent God, CAN crate creatures who are free to believe or reject His words, if He so desires, and that doesn't diminish or "impact" Him in the slightest. I don't know why you would think it does.
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There is nothing in the freedom of man's thinking that has ANY adverse effect on Him. None.
So, you don’t believe in reconciliation?
Yes, I do. How does my statement lead to you thinking man's thinking has an "adverse effect" on God, though. You need to explain this.
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Me: It’s a choice, one based on humanistic preference the other based on revealed truth.
You: Absolutely correct. Man either believes what he thinks "makes sense" or he believes what God has revealed.
Case closed. FG is an admitted humanist.
Sly fox, you. No, I'm not. My pov is that man bleieves what he wants to. He either believes something else, or he believes what God says. There is nothing humanistic in that.
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For purposes of this discussion, said "command" was given so that the recipient was aware of it.
But what if they’re not aware of the command? Are they not guilty? Ignorance of the law...?
let's talk accountability, HK. Is anyone not accountable, just because they weren't aware of some command? No. Is anyone excused for not recognizing God and being thankful to Him? No.
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OK. Explain how "call" is different from "invited". Strong's gives both words as meanings of kletos.
You remember wa-a-ay back when I explained why lexicons have more than one definition? OK, let’s try again. The definitions are drawn from various word usages found in the Bible, through contexts, and from classical literature. They are not choices to fit your pov. Once again, when you have more than one definition, you have flexibility of meaning. The context determines which. Lexicons are not meant to be used as buffet-books for choosing your personal favorite meaning.
All that said, and did you explain how "call" is different from "invited"? No, you did not.
btw, the Greek words for "called" are different between Rom 8 and Matt 22:14. In case you didn't know.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:25:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
I've avoided this example because I think it is not relevant. What about if the sewer water is treated so that its appearance and odor have been eliminated and replaced by attractive colors and aromas. Then it's very possible that people may choose it. Here is the point: all the religions of the world are like sewer water that has been "treated" to appear attractive to people. Many people choose their religions/churches based on liturgy or formality, and etc, etc. they are still choosing sewer water; they just won't realize it until the end, when it is too late.
That's why your example isn't relevant, imho.
Your response is irrelevant. Man is the sewer water.
Apparently you didn't read the post very closely. The example was choosing between two things: sewer water or drinking water.
Your opinion that man is the sewer water is just that, an opinion, without any Biblical support. Man is a sinner, condemned to hell.
quote:
quote:
Are you aware that the "called" in Matt 22:14 is a different word than "called" in Rom 8? Kletos vs kaleoo.
Same root.
Does that make them equivalent?
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 12/4/2008 2:37:49 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:27:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You still don't know what "know" means. It is an intimate knowledge such as Adam knew his wife Eve.
Oh, please don't go there. The Hebrew was describing Adam having sexual relations with his wife. Please don't equate that concept with Rom 8.
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Not a knowledge in the head as you're supposing.
Please elaborate as to where exactly you store your knowledge.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:30:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You still don't know what "know" means. It is an intimate knowledge such as Adam knew his wife Eve.
Oh, please don't go there. The Hebrew is describing Adam having sexual relations with his wive. Don't equate that concept with Romans 8.
quote:
Not a knowledge in the head as you're supposing.
Please elaborate as to where exactly you store your knowledge.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:34:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Psalm 49:12 “Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.”
What is eternal life? How is it that men who perish can be made to abide forever? The easy answer is “God”. Absolutely true, but does he reveal a manner, or method, or “means”, if you will by which he puts eternal life in men? Does God place within people something living and eternally abiding that makes men live forever? If so, how?
1. Eternal life is life with God that never ends. Timeless.
2. God created man's soul to live forever.
3. Yes, He does. It's in the Bible. The means is the Holy Spirit.
4. Yes.
5. He regenerates the human spirit that died when Adam sinned.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2008 2:41:06 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Free-
Best I can sum it up:
We understand with our minds, but believe in our hearts.
But you and the calvinists think that other than the gospel, everything else
that is believed is believed from the mind. Is that right?
Not sure what the Calvies believe on this, Free.
All I know is certain kinds of knowledge do not come strictly from the mind.
Example: I believe my wife loves me.
It is not and cannot be limited to my rational understanding.
There are certain intangibles involved and I will still believe
my wife loves me even if she isn't showing it at the moment!
quote:
I see not support for that from Scripture.
Scripture makes it clear the mind and heart are different parts of our
being and we understand differently. The command "Love the Lord with
all your heart, mind...", etc. clearly implies the heart, mind and soul
make up the totality of our understanding and faith, you don't agree?
Why did Paul lose the Greeks when he spoke of the resurrection?
Why did Thomas doubt until he saw the nail holes?
Why was it necessary for God to open Lydia's heart?
Because it takes the heart AND the mind to believe the gospel, Free.
quote:
As you noted in your previous post why I believe mind and heart
are the same thing, everything that we believe comes from that.
But the mind and the heart are different Scripture treats them differently.
quote:
If you were correct, that there are two separate compartments where
we can believe from, how would anyone even know which one they were
using when they believe?
I have always maintained there is no other way to know we have believed
than by the fact we have been reborn. Once the new birth occurs and we
receive the Holy Spirit, we can "relax" - we know we have believed.
quote:
how could anyone choose which one to use?
Do you see the problems created by this?
As for believing anything else, like the sun will rise, my wife loves me,
its Wednesday so its spagehetti for supper, etc. it depends on what it
is we are believing.
Like I said, intangible things or things that cannot be logically proven
require more than the rational mind to believe.
quote:
At least you have noted that you understand why I think they
are the same. However, your "definition" of heart believing seems to
me to be an insult to the gospel. Are we supposed to have an "irrational
trust" of Christ as Savior? That just doesn't make any sense to me
Irrational trust is a poor choice of words, but I think the essence is we
are trusting in someone we cannot see and believing in something
we cannot prove to the rational human mind.
quote:
Remember that Paul reasoned with those he was evangelizing.
Acts 17:2 and 18:19. You don't reason with an "illogical and/or irrational" approach.
I believe men need to be convinced before they are convicted, Free, so
I dont' reject the idea of appealing to men's intellect, of course.
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Also, Paul reminded the Galatian believers of how they "believed what they heard".
How is that any different from believing anything else? I don't see any difference.
Paul was speaking to believers, who know they believed what they heard
because their believing as converted them! They "effectually believed" to coin a term.
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We hear something, whether the gospel or anything else, and then we either
believe it or reject it. That is normal human response to new information.
That is how God created us. There is nothing wrong with that process.
I don't think so. God opened Lydia's heart to "respond" to the message of the gospel.
Respond how, Free?
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Here is what I'll "give" you: In our "inner being" (call it what you want, or
divide it how you want) we understand first. Then, in our inner being, we either
believe or reject . But the POWER of the Gospel is that when people truly
understand it, they repent and believe, FG. That is the purpose of it.
I think people who reject the gospel are either hardened or self assured,
because if the really understood it they would be saved.
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The kind of believing it takes to be saved does not occur in the mind only, Free.
quote:
Since your "formula" above is just your opinion, without any Scriptural support,
and there is no way for anyone to be able to differentiate between the two supposed
kinds of believing, I disagree
I'll refer you to "believe in your heart"; the opening of Lydia's heart (not mind).
My presupp is the mind and heart ARE different, else the Scripture "love the Lord
with all your heart and mind" would make no sense.
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From your own definition, you cannot reason with an irrational or illogical
approach. It must, therefore, be a rational and logical approach.
How can I explain the resurrection in a logical way, Free? Impossible.
It takes more for a person to believe this.
quote:
Rom 7:25, Paul says he serves God with his mind.
No doubt. But it is not an exclusive statement , is it?
He served God with ALL his being, Free.
You think he was only using his mind after being scourged for the fourth time?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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